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Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 19th, 2017, 8:07 pm

sobrohusfat wrote:
Verum wrote:So, why does Israel insist that all imported food is kosher?
Why does it insist that people of differing religions may not marry?
Why do they give preference to Jews for those wishing to migrate to Israel?
You can claim it is preservation of culture, but when a culture and group of religions such as Judaism are so interconnected, it is often impossible to divorce the two. To pretend that religious groups have little power in Israel takes special wilful ignorance.
.


But Israel is not a Theocratic Kingdom governed by a Counsil of the Sanhedrin

The religious Orthodox are often at odds with "the State" in regards to things like Jews working on the Sabbath etc.

but israelis are free to be Jewish as they wish - even free to be as hedonistically Atheist as you or i are free.
T'would be a whole other story if the Rabbis ran the show.

But it's still the unique Jewish State and they want to stay that way - whether you approve or not - duh

I have never suggested that they not remain a Jewish state, nor am I against such. In fact, I quite like a lot about Israel and would love to see its continued existence and long term success. I have friends and family there and would hate for any harm to come to them. Nor have I claimed that it is a Theocratic Kingdom. Nor have I claimed that religious Orthodox and the state always work together there. In fact, they often don't do so, though Orthodox Jews are given a lot more consideration there than Orthodox Christians and Salafi Muslims, or other traditionalist religious groups, which is somewhat indicative that preferential treatment is afforded to one religion over others, to the point that it would be incredible to claim that Israel is largely secular.

You really seem to be reading a lot into what I wrote, but not actually reading what I wrote.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Jflem1983 » Dec 19th, 2017, 8:14 pm

From what i understand second hand. Israel is a country split in 3. The religious jews who are hated by the arabs. The religious jews hate the army and the arabs. The army hates the arabs. They are at odds with the orthodox jews. The arabs are basically fighting both. They hate the religious jews and the army both
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 19th, 2017, 8:14 pm

sobrohusfat wrote:
Verum wrote:To ignorantly claim that criticism of Israel is particularly driven by anti-Semitism is absurd and apologist in nature. It is a frequently used cry by those who wish to see all such scrutiny and criticism stopped rather than discussed and rationally dealt with and quite simply this approach is intellectually dishonest. Do you condemn criticism of Canada as anti-Christian? Do you consider criticism of Iran as anti-Islam? The fact is that if any country behaves as Israel behaves, I would and do openly criticise them for it. I am at least as willing to criticise the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, Farc, Syria, and many others, but pretending that Israel is beyond reproach is frankly absurd.


STRAWMAN ALERT

Nope, but of course you cut out the quote from Glacier which I was refuting:
Glacier wrote:LOL, Israel is one of the most secular nations on earth. Most Jews are secular including the Prime Minister. It's laughable to get yer knickers in a knot over the few religious Jews who have no say in government policy while completely ignoring the religiously motivated Jew hatred that demands Israel be held to a much higher level of scrutiny than any other nation on earth.

His argument that criticism or scrutiny of Israel is "religiously motivated Jew hatred" is simply wrong and a simple ad hominem style attack.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 19th, 2017, 8:19 pm

sobrohusfat wrote:But Israel is not a Theocratic Kingdom governed by a Council of the Sanhedrin

The religious Orthodox are often at odds with "the State" in regards to things like Jews working on the Sabbath etc.

Israelis are free to be Jewish as they wish - even free to be as hedonistically Atheist as you and i are free.
T'would be a whole other story if the Rabbis ran the show.

But it's still the unique Jewish State and they want to stay that way - whether you approve of how they respond to the threats and violence they endure or not - duh

Ah, shifting goalposts - you changed your argument through edits after you posted it.

We have some international rules, they don't allow for countries to treat their own people or other people without consequences. All civilised societies play by these rules and failure to do so should come with consequences for that country. It is not about my approval or not.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 19th, 2017, 8:19 pm

Jflem1983 wrote:From what i understand second hand. Israel is a country split in 3. The religious jews who are hated by the arabs. The religious jews hate the army and the arabs. The army hates the arabs. They are at odds with the orthodox jews. The arabs are basically fighting both. They hate the religious jews and the army both

I wouldn't quite put it like that, but that neck of the woods certainly has its fair share of hatred to go around.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby sobrohusfat » Dec 20th, 2017, 9:31 pm

We have some international rules, they don't allow for countries to treat their own people or other people without consequences


quit talking in grand broad terms without saying anything - lets have specifics from you - events / grievances ...with details

i've been reading this sh*t for a decade right here and hearing it elsewhere long before that - and its always the same lame misconceptions, glaring omissions, bold faced lies, half truths, twisted logic, all peppered with blurbs and quotes from "The UN" *pfffff* "The International Community" *pfffff* - "Israel hating Rabbis" *pfffff* followed by Self righteous diatribes about injustice and scrutiny and checkpoints and the wall...THE WAAAALLLL ...reprehensible behaviour.... both sides ....BOTH SIIIIDES!!


... if any country behaves as Israel behaves i would and do criticize...


ok like what? ....with accurate specifics would be a nice change
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 20th, 2017, 10:13 pm

sobrohusfat wrote:
We have some international rules, they don't allow for countries to treat their own people or other people without consequences


quit talking in grand broad terms without saying anything - lets have specifics from you - events / grievances ...with details

i've been reading this sh*t for a decade right here and hearing it elsewhere long before that - and its always the same lame misconceptions, glaring omissions, bold faced lies, half truths, twisted logic, all peppered with blurbs and quotes from "The UN" *pfffff* "The International Community" *pfffff* - "Israel hating Rabbis" *pfffff* followed by Self righteous diatribes about injustice and scrutiny and checkpoints and the wall...THE WAAAALLLL ...reprehensible behaviour.... both sides ....BOTH SIIIIDES!!


... if any country behaves as Israel behaves i would and do criticize...


ok like what? ....with accurate specifics would be a nice change

Just look up any reports by Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International on the topic. The list is long but includes such as torture of minors, extra-judicial killings, restrictions of movement and access by neutral foreign aid, etc. You can claim that Israel does all of this to protect itself, but it is all demonstrably true and in my opinion worthy of criticism. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone can think that Israel is beyond such criticism.

I find it interesting that you only latch onto my criticism of Israel and not onto anything negative I've said about the Palestinians and Arabs. All countries, and significantly large groups are worthy of criticism and it is not hatred to criticise with understanding. To put all of the blame on the other side, in this and most cases of conflict, is to be simply ignorant of the situation. War and conflict are rarely between good and evil/right and wrong, but some will do their utmost to convince you that they are on the side of good and right. It seems that in this case their propaganda has worked.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby sobrohusfat » Dec 20th, 2017, 10:37 pm

There's that repeated "israel isn't beyond criticism" go-to weirdness again...

The list is so long with the evil Zionists - should be easy to pick one and unpack it in detail...


...go on....
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 20th, 2017, 11:12 pm

sobrohusfat wrote:There's that repeated "israel isn't beyond criticism" go-to weirdness again...

The list is so long with the evil Zionists - should be easy to pick one and unpack it in detail...


...go on....

Have you read any of the reports by Amnesty International?
How about these issues:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15591860
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/israel-opt-pattern-of-unlawful-killings-reveals-shocking-disregard-for-human-life/
https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/israel/palestine
Anyway, when you have read these reports and others on Amnesty's site and Human Rights Watch's site, get back to me. I doubt you'll read a single article on these sites to be honest, since I doubt you really care to know anything which doesn't fit your current World view.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Jflem1983 » Dec 21st, 2017, 5:39 am

Verum wrote:
sobrohusfat wrote:There's that repeated "israel isn't beyond criticism" go-to weirdness again...

The list is so long with the evil Zionists - should be easy to pick one and unpack it in detail...


...go on....

Have you read any of the reports by Amnesty International?
How about these issues:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15591860
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/israel-opt-pattern-of-unlawful-killings-reveals-shocking-disregard-for-human-life/
https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/israel/palestine
Anyway, when you have read these reports and others on Amnesty's site and Human Rights Watch's site, get back to me. I doubt you'll read a single article on these sites to be honest, since I doubt you really care to know anything which doesn't fit your current World view.



I would not put any faith in any UN programs or info.

I remember all too well collecting money at halloween for those slime balls as a kid. Unacceptable getting school children to raise money for such a crooked group.

I am likely wrong. I group amnesty in with the UN.

Hard not to cheer for the Israelis. Look up the yom kippur war or whatevee it was called in 67 when all the arab states invaded Israel. The Jews kicked *bleep* and took land . Somehow this has become a sore spot internationally. Somehow it has been forgotten that 5 countries teamed uo to remove Israel from the map. Israel defended herself. This is somehow lost on the international community . I have no idea how or why.

So Verum in short i dont really care what an NGO like Amnesty has to say . They are not looking at the bigger picture. They are just cheerleaders for hamas
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Glacier » Dec 21st, 2017, 7:46 am

Verum wrote:His argument that criticism or scrutiny of Israel is "religiously motivated Jew hatred" is simply wrong and a simple ad hominem style attack.

No ad hominen at all. It seems to me that you have a problem with Jews in that you have much higher bar for them to cross than everyone else. You don't seem like the racist type, so I refuse to believe that you are racist/antisemitic, and instead, think you may have been led to believe lies by those who are.

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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Jflem1983 » Dec 21st, 2017, 7:52 am

Glacier wrote:
Verum wrote:His argument that criticism or scrutiny of Israel is "religiously motivated Jew hatred" is simply wrong and a simple ad hominem style attack.

No ad hominen at all. It seems to me that you have a problem with Jews in that you have much higher bar for them to cross than everyone else. You don't seem like the racist type, so I refuse to believe that you are racist/antisemitic, and instead, think you may have been led to believe lies by those who are.



I Think Verum just believes what they want to. There is not much pro Israel stuff out there. Kinda surprising with all the american jews in media.
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby The Green Barbarian » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:12 am

I'm not surprised that the morally bankrupt UN reacted stupidly to the US declaration on Jerusalem, but I am very disappointed in Canada's reaction. I thought all of the JT cheerleaders here were telling me that Trudeau was making everyone proud again to be Canadian. Why am I not surprised that they are wrong. The only people "proud" here are wrong-headed terrorist sympathizers and leftist boneheads. These are not people that I would want to make "proud", given they are so dense.

The United Nations General Assembly overwhelmingly backed a measure critical of President Donald Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel despite U.S. Ambassador Nikki Haley’s warning that the move could put funding for their nations and the global body at risk.

The non-binding UN resolution passed on Thursday by a vote of 128-9, with 35 nations abstaining. The U.S. vote in opposition was joined by countries including Guatemala, Nauru and Micronesia. Key abstentions came from Australia, Canada, Argentina and Romania.

“The United States will remember this day when it was singled out for attack in the General Assembly,” Haley said at the United Nations podium ahead of the vote. “We will remember it when so many countries come calling on us, as they often do, to pay even more. This vote will be remembered.”


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/un ... spartanntp
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby Verum » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:47 am

Glacier wrote:
Verum wrote:His argument that criticism or scrutiny of Israel is "religiously motivated Jew hatred" is simply wrong and a simple ad hominem style attack.

No ad hominen at all. It seems to me that you have a problem with Jews in that you have much higher bar for them to cross than everyone else. You don't seem like the racist type, so I refuse to believe that you are racist/antisemitic, and instead, think you may have been led to believe lies by those who are.

Can you point to a situation where I excused others of behaviour of which I have criticised Israel? I hold them to no higher standard than they claim themselves to already be at and certainly no higher standard than I would hold any developed country.

I have researched this topic as it is one close to my heart for a couple of reasons I will not get into. While I used to be very pro-Israel, and blind to their actions, largely based on stupid emotional reasons, such as thinking that they deserve a nation after the Holocaust (not saying that Israel shouldn't exist, it should, but the Holocaust is a dumb reason to support it), and thinking that any action is justified if it is intended to keep your people safe. I justified their behaviour because they were under constant threat from their neighbours. This was an opinion formed by reading Newsweek, the Economist and WSJ when I was younger. After research I have found that some of the actions of Israel are not so justifiable and deserve scrutiny and criticism. I used to think of Palestinians as just hate filled terrorists, suicide bombers, who just wanted to kill off Israel, rather than a people who largely just want to live their lives on their land that was taken from them. The actions of other nations towards Israel is no justification for harming Palestinians whatsoever, but it is frequently used by those who would support and justify the otherwise unjustifiable.

Both sides have committed terrible actions, and I have repeatedly said so, yet absolutely nobody is defending Palestinians from my criticism, but as soon as a single bad word is said about Israel, people just attack my position. If there is a double standard, it is those who would unwaveringly take one side, either side, in this complex and nuanced conflict.

By the way, since much of my research comes from reading reports from the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, both of which are critical of those involved in this conflict, can you point at where they are lying, since you seem convinced that I believe lies?
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Re: Tic ...Toc ... Israel

Postby sobrohusfat » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:48 am

Verum wrote:...since I doubt you really care to know anything which doesn't fit your current World view.


Well then , setting aside your arrogant presumptions, let me assuage your "doubts" by saying my views on this topic have changed somewhat since the original version of this thread began years ago. (deleted for some still mysterious reason)

Like you seem to be, i too try to see all sides of an issue before forming an opinion... being particularly sensitive to and CRITICAL OF incidents of Injustice and oppression just like any decent, rational human being.

SO... with only a superficial understanding of all the facts, every time a statement was made regarding another transgression of human decency by the evil zionist monsters, i would research not only the incident but the source of the information AND the historical factors that led to it. When and why the wall? - when and why the checkpoints? (sometimes removed then re-established WHY?) - why has every peace accord failed when Israeli concessions seemed to match everything the other side claimed to want? - why the Gaza Disengagement of 2005 just made matters worse? - why the naval blockade? - are israelis REALLY starving them out and cutting off water and power? Who actually runs the show in Judea/Samaria ...and where are the Billions of dollars poured into the arab leadership coffers??? ....on and on it went.

Every time i looked, i found easily available facts {critical facts} had been either omitted or distorted in some way - deliberately or out of lazy ignorance (and yes, in some cases simply because of an ingrained belief that "Jews [and Gingers] have no soul" - lol)

So the consistent discrepancy between what's constantly being presented vs THE FACTS has changed my views - i no longer believe in a two state solution - i no longer have faith in the fair/impartial good will of the "International Community", the UN, the Media, most castanuts... etc.

Why would i pretend incidents of brutality and injustice don't take place there (like anywhere else) - i know they do. But i also know that Israel is NOT an evil racist society. It is run by the rule of law and transgressors are prosecuted and punished regardless of the colour of their socks.

...which is why i asked you for specifics and details that we can talk about and be critical of - not broad, vague statements and concepts, - or arrogant presumptions.




Sorry, gotta get back to work now....




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Last edited by sobrohusfat on Dec 21st, 2017, 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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