Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

[sooperphreek]

and with the quasi borders and ties to scotland and N ireland the UK will probably have business as usual. it will just cost a bit more to trade in europe (and find ways to turn a blind eye in N ireland and scotlands borders). and and you can actually chase huge markets soverignly in asia and india. and i guarantee that old commonwealths will not turn their backs on the UK. australia will probably welcome trade with the UK with open arms. and i venture canada will too. africa will be tough because china has filled the void with cash - and trades infrastructure and stadiums for raping resources and cheap labor. the US will be *bleep* because they lost their good cop in the UK in regards to the EU and nato. so they may make them pay. but they love money and trade stats too much to make it hurt too long. there is always a way to circumvent things. and with a corrupt and unaccountable trade union and token government in the EU it will become a new way of doing business soon.

[goatboy]

I also wish that there was a third option; Stay in the EU but with these new conditions.............

[hobbyguy]

I doubt that a new referendum - regardless of the outcome, would have any impact on Ms. Sturgeon. She is using this as a political opportunity. IF I were a Scot wanting Scottish independence - so would I.

I also doubt that anyone could expect a "do-over" referendum. This one, in the aftermath, has attracted too much outside interference. Plus a new referendum would cause huge divisions.

Another factor in this to consider. Some folks are afraid of change, and will stick with an uncomfortable or untenable situation rather than take a step toward new territory. I wonder how many of the "remains" are actually upset with EU membership, but too attached to the status quo to vote to get out? Especially those who have never known anything else?

[Walking Wounded]

I'm sure hoping that wasn't what you got from reading my post.

Nothing to do with your post, just happened to be right after it.

[hobbyguy]

Goat - Cameron tried hard for that third option - and in its usual fashion the EU bafflegabbed him to death and in the end he got nothing. At least nothing of substance. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/eu-deal-what-david-cameron-asked-for-and-what-he-actually-got/

[Omnitheo]

It seems to me that the largest problem people have with the EU is the unelected nature of it.

Given that issue, what solution would you suggest for it?

In terms of creating a democratic system, would countries elect their own EU representatives? Essentially a Senator for the representing them in the union? Would this be proportional to population of countries? Or would all EU countries be considered equal?

[hobbyguy]

I think if you look at the minor (at least to most folks) squabbles that we have within the Canadian Confederation, you start to get a sense of why the EU was doomed from the start.

Fundamentally, humans are tribal by nature. They need to recognize and be in step with their tribe. "Those folks I am with think like I do" etc. is important. That is behind the structure of our democratic system: Federal, provincial, regional, municipal - which allow for measures of democratic control down to a meaningful level.

Languages are also ways of thinking. Even body languages and gestures differ by culture.

If we look at Canada, we have a limited number of cultural/language/traditions to accommodate. And we have our differences that occasionally bubble over a bit.

Now think about Europe, the number cultural/language/traditions to accommodate.

The US tries for a different route - the melting pot, and still it is divided in many ways. However their system has "states rights" that accommodate a lot of regional differences. However, the US has reached a difficult point where the differences have become entrenched and at the federal level, we see the stagnation in the congress.

I just don't think that democracy fits very well with large overarching political structures.

[The Green Barbarian]

It seems to me that the largest problem people have with the EU is the unelected nature of it.

Yes, that is a big problem. Glad that you finally caught up. Political power without any sort of accountability leads to gross corruption. Every time.

Given that issue, what solution would you suggest for it?

A system of economic trade governed by officials that are elected, not just appointed to fat cushy jobs.

In terms of creating a democratic system, would countries elect their own EU representatives? Essentially a Senator for the representing them in the union? Would this be proportional to population of countries? Or would all EU countries be considered equal?

This is actually worth talking about. The current system is broken. When the Palestinian leader can stand in front of an unelected bunch of EU yahoos and puke up lies about Israel and then receive a standing ovation from said unelected yahoos, there is a problem.

[The Green Barbarian]

I was wondering why some people seem to think it is a bad thing that a country wants out of a situation where unelected bureaucrats can and do make policies that greatly affect conditions in your country?

[Symbonite]

Kinda like how we would react if our decisions were made by politicians In the US....oh wait....what!?

[Hurtlander]

-Apparently the Brexit leaders weren't totally honest...
-The vote to leave the EU has caused racists to act out...

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/27/right_w ... _explodes/

[The Green Barbarian]

*removed*

[dieseluphammerdown]

Well one knew that leaving was the right thing to do once Trudaeu spoke out in favour of them staying.

[hobbyguy]

That is the propaganda that the EU wants out there. It is, as I have stated before, tinged with intellectual snobbery and elitism.

Do you really think that the 52% of "Leave" Brits are racist?

And: the whole meme of anti-Islam sentiment that has been put forward by world leaders, including the EU parliament, has engendered racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/27/-sp-racism-on-rise-in-britain
"“The term racism has undergone a change of meaning. It has lost its moral force. We use it today too freely. After the war if you said someone was racist, you had images of Hitler. A racist was someone who hated people. Now it is applied to someone who might say: ‘I love my people and want to keep others at a distance.’” - that from Prof Bhikhu Parekh

What we are seeing is an attempt by the vested interests to denigrate and stigmatize "leave" voters. Remember, there are calls for referenda in Denmark, and Holland, and... Therefore it suits the EU establishment and bureaucrats to try to generate a sentiment that "if you vote to leave the EU - you are a racist and unworthy person". Utterly predictable. And false as much of the anti-immigrant sentiment is directed toward immigration from EU countries.

Anti-immigrant sentiment arises when? Partly when folks feel that their culture is being overwhelmed. I would argue, however, that the real spark is conditions of standard of living and lack of opportunity. IF your standard of living is in decline, and you see little opportunity for yourself and members of your family to improve their lot, then it is entirely logical to say "why are we bringing in immigrants when there are not enough opportunities to go around". That is hardly racist thinking.

The EU and those who have vested interest in its perpetuation will not make that distinction between anti-immigration sentiment and racism. Anti-immigration sentiment arises out of the failure of the EU and its member states to properly ensure that ALL of their citizens have opportunities before them. Therein lies the fatal flaw of the EU project.

[Symbonite]

while all this is going on..Putin is sitting there raising his glass of vodka and giving a head nod to all that is going on in Europe..