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Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby sooperphreek » Jul 1st, 2016, 11:27 am

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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby the truth » Jul 3rd, 2016, 9:29 am

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... htm#169752 one of many reasons why leaving the EU is a good thing for the UK
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby hobbyguy » Jul 3rd, 2016, 11:57 am

I have been trying to get to grips with the growing anti-EU sentiment in Europe. These articles cast some light on it beyond the simplistic (and I believe fairly small) factor of racism.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/1999-05-01/one-economy-ready-or-not-thomas-friedmans-jaunt-throughhttps://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publications/archive/dialogue/1_11/relevance_social/588.html

The Carnegie article is from 1998. Governments and the EU have failed to address the challenges laid out there. Friedman argues that globalization is both inevitable and unstoppable - I think he is likely correct.

The main challenge that I see is achieving a structure that is both flexible enough to cope with change, and able to address the big problem of "those left behind". Too much of what has gone on to date is a "race to the bottom" - whether it is meaning employment for folks, lack of affordable education and/or retraining resources, government finances declining because of corporate and financial mobility (creating a "race to the bottom" on tax rates), and income inequality.

The EU has proven itself to be bureaucratic, unwilling to change, and likely too big to have any flexibility.

What is likely required is more like a sector by sector, country by country set of agreements. That may sound silly, but clearly the chainsaw approach of these massive overarching "free trade" deals is not working. A more "scalpel" like approach is needed, and that is feasible with computers and the internet. But then, sigh, politicians would actually have to work for a living....
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis

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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby Omnitheo » Jul 4th, 2016, 5:27 am

And now Farage has resigned.

In essence, here is the timeline of manipulation

1:) Right Wing Cameron runs election campaign promising a referendum on leaving the EU in order to appeal to right wing base
2:) Cameron wins and parliament approves a referendum for a few years later
3:) Cameron realizes that leaving the EU would be disastrous for the country and later appeals to citizens to remain in the EU.
4:) far right fringe party with single issue (leaving the EU) uses this as an opportunity to gain support for their issue.party leader Farage ramps up rhetoric and campaigning, promising to deliver EU money to healthcare instead.
5:) right wing Former London mayor Johnson sees this an an opportunity to increase his own recognition in anticipation of a future run for parliament, joins Farage in campaigning for Brexit
6:)Brexit vote succeeds
7:) Cameron, not wanting to be the one who has to deal with Brexit resigns
8:) Johnson, Not wanting to be the one who has to deal with Brexit announces he has no plans to run for parliament
9: Farage, called out on his lies, and not wanting to be the one to deal with the negative implications of Brexit resigns.

Would love a censor appropriate creative adjective here to refer to these three and the mess they caused, and then fled from leaving others to clean up.
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby maryjane48 » Jul 4th, 2016, 5:57 am

that is right . they cause a vote to leave and run like cowards .it was all about keeping non british folks out . even the poles are unwelcome now
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby the truth » Jul 4th, 2016, 7:35 am

more like 17 million people voted to leave the eu, so you people live in bc on a fourm and now know better then the 17million people that live in the uk that voted to leave the eu lol lol :200:
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jul 4th, 2016, 7:42 am

maryjane48 wrote:that is right . they cause a vote to leave and run like cowards .it was all about keeping non british folks out . even the poles are unwelcome now


Is it really "cowardly" to decide you don't want to be ruled by unelected morally bankrupt and highly corrupt officials who have zero accountability? Really? No, it's not actually.
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby hobbyguy » Jul 4th, 2016, 8:13 am

Part of that is that it is easy to highlight the symptoms of the problems, more difficult to define the problems with precision, and even more difficult to arrive at solutions - especially when innovation is required.

Trump is very, very good at highlighting the symptoms of similar issues in the US. But has no credible solutions because, as I realized some time ago, you can not turn the clock back. Sanders does the same very good job of highlighting the problem (without the racism and anti-immigrant nonsense). Unfortunately Sanders has only the same socialist solutions from the past - similar to what the EU is trying to impose - to propose - and with predictably the same results.

I don't think we have a model out there that promises to actually resolve the dilemmas posed by the pace of change and globalization we are experiencing. Tom Friedman admitted in an interview with Charlie Rose that he has no solutions, and that he would not want to be a politician trying to come up with them.

It is obvious that in "western" democracies the current course of actions is not producing optimum results. Too many folks, many of whom just want a stable decent paying job to build their lives around, are being left behind. At the same time, many of the social nets that help those folks are eroding or substantially weakened.

Old style protectionism is most likely an illusory response. Concept like a guaranteed annual income are badly flawed with downsides.

So it is quite likely that from Cameron on down, politicians have been ducking because while they have been very good at defining the symptoms, they do not have any solutions. Even Cameron knew, however, that the existing EU structure is not workable, and does not address the challenges.

Tough nut problem. What would you do?
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis

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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby sooperphreek » Jul 4th, 2016, 9:07 am

i dont see what the problem is. there was lies and malfeasance from both sides in britain. its over and done with. all the white noise is not making a difference or will change things. it would be silly for the UK to stay now. they lose any bargaining position in the future if they are cowards and take what they get from the EU to stay.
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jul 4th, 2016, 9:22 am

sooperphreek wrote:i dont see what the problem is. there was lies and malfeasance from both sides in britain. its over and done with. all the white noise is not making a difference or will change things. it would be silly for the UK to stay now. they lose any bargaining position in the future if they are cowards and take what they get from the EU to stay.


Exactly. Now is the time to be strong and to stand up to the EU bullies, and their evil minions. This is their one chance to get what they need in terms of fair trade deals and stronger immigration policies. Being called bigots, racists and xenophobes by PC boobs really shouldn't be an issue here. It's about demanding accountability and putting systems in place to ensure accountability, on all fronts. The days of being told what to do and pushed around by unelected bureaucrats are over.
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby maryjane48 » Jul 4th, 2016, 9:31 am

lot of companies will move from uk starting with car plant .
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jul 4th, 2016, 9:40 am

maryjane48 wrote:lot of companies will move from uk starting with car plant .


Move where exactly?
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby the truth » Jul 4th, 2016, 10:02 am

maryjane48 wrote:lot of companies will move from uk starting with car plant .


or lots of companies will move into the uk now because of the low $$$$
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby hobbyguy » Jul 4th, 2016, 10:02 am

sooper - The problem is essentially that the "Wall St."/High-tech globalized economy has left the "Main St." economy behind and hasn't given a rats.

This lady puts it more succinctly than I can: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36622707

"Globalisation, with inexorable speed, has changed the world we live in. For all of us. Jobs have changed, the way we trade has changed, who we employ has changed and the feel of where we live has changed.

And the world has become more unequal too. In retrospect, it was perhaps inevitable that that process wasn't going to go ahead unchecked, ad infinitum.

But politicians, in Europe and the US, failed to grapple with the real life implications of this force and on Thursday a majority of Brits said "enough."

They were fed up with politicians who didn't listen to their concerns. It's no coincidence that London, which has benefited massively from the globalised financial system, voted just as massively to remain. "

When a union steelworker from say, the US "rustbelt", is laid off permanently because someone in a low wage country with phi alpha for environmental/health/safety regulation can produce steel cheaper, they and their family most often fall out of the middle class - especially if they can not afford to (or have the talents) re-educate themselves (and even then they may not get back to the same income), and even more so if they are 48 or older (by the time they retrain/re-educate they are over 50 and nobody will hire them - well, very few and only if they work cheap).

Eventually that person gets ground down and gives the world the one finger salute by voting for a Farage or a Trump or a Sanders: anyone that even pretends to care about them. And they won't care about any unsavory stuff. (History has some nasty examples of the results of that. And it accounts for Trump's resilience in the Republican primaries regardless of what nonsense he spewed.)

"Wall St" says its only duty is to its shareholders. They will have let their shareholders down badly if this situation gets too out of hand. As I have paraphrased Confucius before: "When you do everything to make a profit, you will generate great resentment". I would add that when you really p people off, it is much more difficult and expensive to get them "back on board" than if you listen to and respond to their concerns in the first place.

The high handed arrogance of "Wall St." and "The City" is leading to a bad result for them if they don't change their tune in big hurry. Just ask Marie Antoinette or Tsar Nicholas. It may be too late already.
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Re: Why the U.K. Needs to Leave the E.U.

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jul 4th, 2016, 10:08 am

the truth wrote:
or lots of companies will move into the uk now because of the low $$$$


They are not moving to Greece or Italy, that's for sure. They actually need a workforce that wants to work more than 30 hours a week while not demanding 8 weeks vacation a year and to retire at age 40 with a giant pension. They need actual workers, which is why the EU is doomed to fail. They are only as strong as their weakest links.
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