Attack at UK parliament

[Glacier]

As for Muslim/non Muslims.....check out the sermon on Piety and Submission. Do you think Adam and Eve were Muslim?...of course not, they were children of God, no religious affiliation at all....so in that context what do you think the rest of the paragraph means. He's telling his people to be tolerant of others, including non Muslims.

http://islam.ru/en/content/story/last-sermon-prophet

Um, Adam was the first Muslim. That's theology 101, buds. You are doing some severe cherry picking here. You are throwing out the dozens of references to the kafir as people to be subjugated, and focusing on one verse. I wish you like, but in a theological argument with abu bakr al-baghdadi, you lose every time. Shih Al-Bukhari does not give the actual sermon. It only references it. Big difference.

Plus, it does not say anything about the kafir, the unbeliever, the infidel at all. It sounds nice, and perhaps the peaceful sects use it as a way to promote peace (good for them), but the violent sects have the lion's share of the hadith on their side to keep radicalizing. It's an extremely weak argument against explicit calls to strike the necks of the unbelievers.

[Fancy]

I'd like to hear more about this attack and if any other evidence was found.

[dirtrider]

Let's be honest about the motives of this UK attack. It was Islam as taught by the perfect man (who married a six year old, raped his captor's wife, and slaughtered and terrorized his enemies.

You don't think Islam is defined by a guy like baghdati, do you?? ? He's a pig and a murderer. Why is Islam at fault for getting radicalized like that?

Muhammad participated in and promoted violence against unbelievers. That's wrong. Whatever one thinks of Jesus, he never violently killed or raped anyone, nor did he call for the subjugation of women.

See totally off base here, If you read his earlier life after he had the visions and started teaching monotheism as opposed to what was in Mecca at the time, polytheism, he became very unpopular. It was the other way around Glacier, he was protecting his new found Islam from politics, multi-god worship and watching out for his life. He certain didn't rape anyone I'm pretty sure...and that's kinda wrong for you to even imply that...it would be the same as accusing Jesus of rape, hey? If Muhammad called for the subjugation of women...let's see the hadith on that? Otherwise I already showed you what he said in the farewell sermon about that and it's not about the subjugation of women. In fact for the area and the time, fairly enlightened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Show me the source of the farewell sermon. I'm not familiar with it. Is it in the Qu'ran or the Hadith? Is it in Sahih al-Bukhari or Sahih Muslim? .....You have not supplied a source for this sermon......The reason I'm asking for a source is that some sources are considered more reliable than others. Basically, the hadith are classified as Sahih (Authentic), Hasan (Acceptable), Da’eef (Weak) and Mawdoo’ (Fabricated). Fabricated traditions (Mawdoo') are not considered to be Hadith. It makes a huge difference as to where this sermon comes from because if it comes from the weak or fabricated hadith, it bares no weight among Muslims who carry out attacks.

Yep see that's what I gave you. That farewell sermon is reference in Sahih al-Burkari's Hadith: 1623, 1626 and 6361....you know the most authentic collection of his life stories and teachings. That is what you asked? So in the farewell sermon, does he comes across a deranged, killer, rapist Prophet? I don't know about you but reading that farewell speech and given the time period, 600AD in the Middle East, I'm thinking that's pretty good guidance he is dispensing to his people. Is he saying to go out and kill and slaughter all the infidels you come across? I don't think so. You're stuck on the fact fact that he doesn't come out and say to treat the non-Muslim like brothers,per se. IMO, it's clear to me that's what he is writing about when he writes:

An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; a white has no superiority over a black, nor does a black have any superiority over a white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.

I realize a non-Arab can be a Muslim or a black or a white....but come on buds, he's writing about everyone here, Muslim..non Muslim. Point me in the direction of this particular Hadith by Sahih al-Burkari that says anything close to their violence against the infidels and maybe I'll consider what you're saying about the inherent violent nature of Islam. It's not the founding ideology of Islam that's driving the extremists because if you're saying that then Cristianity and Judism are in the same boat as they share the exact same original ideology. Like you mentioned, that's exactly what is happening to Islam....being warped by extremism. As you know Christianity had its own share of infamy in that regard.


It's only the extremists and murderers like Baghdati that's saying to kill the kafirs and he is getting to weak and susceptible minds like Mahood to carry out his terror, like in London.

[dirtrider]

I'd like to hear more about this attack and if any other evidence was found.

Here you go Fancy, appears Masood had a long and troubled life way before he converted to Islam.

London attacker Khalid Masood: how hard-drinking, drug-taking village thug sought help over his urges to kill

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... g-village/

[Merry]

Both sides are equally guilty for this night mare.

Will you feel the same way if your mother (or any other member of your family) gets caught in a terrorist attack and gets her legs blown off?

[dirtrider]

Both sides are equally guilty for this night mare.

Will you feel the same way if your mother (or any other member of your family) gets caught in a terrorist attack and gets her legs blown off?

I guess I could pose the same theoretical question and ask you how would you feel if you mother or any other member of your family gets any part of their body blown off because some planes from Britain blew up your house in your own country?...just saying.

[GordonH]

It appears this fellow has a Saudi Arabia connection

[Merry]

I guess I could pose the same theoretical question and ask you how would you feel if you mother or any other member of your family gets any part of their body blown off because some planes from Britain blew up your house in your own country?...just saying.

If it was an accident I'd be very upset, but eventually I would accept it and move on. However if it was an act of war, I would want to fight back and defend my homeland and my way of life.

Which is exactly what we should be doing in the face of the current terrorist threat against our Western culture and way of life. Or don't you think our Western way of life is worth fighting for?

When there is a clash of totally incompatable cultures, only one can be the victor. Which one would you like it to be?

[whatwhat]

When there is a clash of totally incompatable cultures, only one can be the victor. Which one would you like it to be?

This sounds like a slogan ISIS would come up with TBH.

[dirtrider]

I guess I could pose the same theoretical question and ask you how would you feel if you mother or any other member of your family gets any part of their body blown off because some planes from Britain blew up your house in your own country?...just saying.

If it was an accident I'd be very upset, but eventually I would accept it and move on. However if it was an act of war, I would want to fight back and defend my homeland and my way of life.

Which is exactly what we should be doing in the face of the current terrorist threat against our Western culture and way of life. Or don't you think our Western way of life is worth fighting for?

When there is a clash of totally incompatable cultures, only one can be the victor. Which one would you like it to be?

I'm here in Canada where there are variety of people including Muslims but I'm not seeing this threat in this country or in the US. Most of the crimes in this country and the US are committed by whites against whites and other ethnic groups. Perhaps if the West didn't go to the Middle East and Africa and create the influx of refugees fleeing their own countries, we wouldn't have this war with them? I was saving this article for Glacier but this is as good a time to post it.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/09/isl ... mic-state/

[Glacier]

The idea that Islam is a religion of peace was invented by George W. Bush, but if you're interested in hearing both sides, here's an excellent debate on the topic.

As for the "last sermon" you still don't get it. Referring to something does not guarantee that a version of it is indeed accurate. Most Muslim scholars consider it a forgery. It could very well be that the original was lost, so someone made up one just to have it there. So if you're a peaceful Muslim trying to win an ideological war with ISIS, you're going to lose the argument because ISIS has the lion's share of the strong hadith on its side.

There are really one two ways to defeat ISIS. Either with guns and bombs or to expose Islam for what it is. In my view the latter is our best hope.

[dirtrider]

The idea that Islam is a religion of peace was invented by George W. Bush, but if you're interested in hearing both sides, here's an excellent debate on the topic.

As for the "last sermon" you still don't get it. Referring to something does not guarantee that a version of it is indeed accurate. Most Muslim scholars consider it a forgery. It could very well be that the original was lost, so someone made up one just to have it there. So if you're a peaceful Muslim trying to win an ideological war with ISIS, you're going to lose the argument because ISIS has the lion's share of the strong hadith on its side.

Ummm....so you go from:

Show me the source of the farewell sermon. I'm not familiar with it. Is it in the Qu'ran or the Hadith? Is it in Sahih al-Bukhari or Sahih Muslim?

...that to

"Most Muslim scholars consider it a forgery."

doesn't really carry too much weight now does it? The farewell sermon by Muhammad is well known, heard by many and passed down in the oral traditions of the Islamic Hadith. I'll grant you that the translation from Arabic to English might not be 100% accurate but the context of the sermon by Muhammad is imo after reading many many sources accurate. What "original" are you referring to? There were I believe 3 Hadiths of the same 'farewell sermon". Unfortunately, there lies some of the problems with oral traditions, many variations and many interpretations, similar to the Christian bible. The final version and the editorial of the sacred writings didn't happen until 300 years after the death of Jesus by Constantine. Perhaps that's why there are 100000 sects of Christianity, too many interpretations.

You still don't seem to get it because extremist will use any ideology to advance their cause, it has nothing to do with which version of the hadith or part of the quran they quote from. They can get their ideology from a cracker jack box.
If you truly want to understand the "muslim" problem and to think critically about it, checkout the above link I posted for Merry.

[The Green Barbarian]

This sounds like a slogan ISIS would come up with TBH.

uh...yeah....it sure does.

[averagejoe]

I'm here in Canada where there are variety of people including Muslims but I'm not seeing this threat in this country or in the US.

Hummmm 9-11 is a start where 3,000 people were killed by Muslim terrorists...how soon we forget.

[The Green Barbarian]