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American cop watch

American cop watch

Postby maryjane48 » Sep 1st, 2017, 10:36 am

http://glbn.ca/2H1tjn


here a nurse gets arrested for diong her job
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Re: American cop watch

Postby maryjane48 » Sep 1st, 2017, 3:44 pm

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Re: American cop watch

Postby seewood » Sep 2nd, 2017, 8:24 am

Talked to a friend/customer yesterday. His daughter, a recent recruit from Depot, just received a commendation from her detachment commander for saving a distraught girls life. Grabbed her arm before jumping off a bridge.
Your distaste for cops is very apparent. Really annoys me. How many punks, thieves, cons cause harm to those that are trying to do a very difficult job.
Granted not all should be cops and there is plenty of recent evidence of that, but after working with many over the years, the majority are there for the right reason and be thankful of that.
Perhaps if one were to post every time an officer was killed while on duty you might get a glimpse of the pain and suffering the community and family feels with a loss from someone trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem
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Re: American cop watch

Postby maryjane48 » Sep 2nd, 2017, 9:30 am

seewood wrote:Talked to a friend/customer yesterday. His daughter, a recent recruit from Depot, just received a commendation from her detachment commander for saving a distraught girls life. Grabbed her arm before jumping off a bridge.
Your distaste for cops is very apparent. Really annoys me. How many punks, thieves, cons cause harm to those that are trying to do a very difficult job.
Granted not all should be cops and there is plenty of recent evidence of that, but after working with many over the years, the majority are there for the right reason and be thankful of that.
Perhaps if one were to post every time an officer was killed while on duty you might get a glimpse of the pain and suffering the community and family feels with a loss from someone trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem

i dont need no lectures from cop apoligists. you want to ignore the facts then so be it . this problem of cops g9kne rogue wont end until people like you face up to it . if you dnt like a thread dont look at itc. simple.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby averagejoe » Sep 2nd, 2017, 9:41 am

I have a feeling MJ would rather go back to the lawless old west where the criminals ran everything.... :135:
"Man is not free unless government is limited." -- Ronald Reagan

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Re: American cop watch

Postby bob vernon » Sep 2nd, 2017, 10:14 am

Didn't these cops have ANY training? And what was the nurse being charged with? It was just a cop who thought he could define what the law is.

If the police wanted the blood sample, they should have gotten the warrant. That what the word "warrant" means. Did the facts around the traffic accident WARRANT getting a blood sample in the opinion of a judge? Probably yes. If they got the warrant and handed it to the nurse, they would have gotten their blood sample. Easy as that. And a warrant is easy to get, day or night if the facts warrant it.

At one point in the exchange in the hospital, the cop threatens to draw the blood sample by himself. If he had have done that, any impaired driving case would have been thrown out of court automatically.

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Re: American cop watch

Postby rustled » Sep 2nd, 2017, 10:44 am

bob vernon wrote:Didn't these cops have ANY training? And what was the nurse being charged with? It was just a cop who thought he could define what the law is.

If the police wanted the blood sample, they should have gotten the warrant. That what the word "warrant" means. Did the facts around the traffic accident WARRANT getting a blood sample in the opinion of a judge? Probably yes. If they got the warrant and handed it to the nurse, they would have gotten their blood sample. Easy as that. And a warrant is easy to get, day or night if the facts warrant it.

At one point in the exchange in the hospital, the cop threatens to draw the blood sample by himself. If he had have done that, any impaired driving case would have been thrown out of court automatically.

Interesting story, and interesting that you think the cop (Payne) wanted to prove the patient was at fault.

As I understand it, the unconscious patient was a professional driver, working when the accident happened. A friend who is a professional driver was involved in a terrible accident where there was loss of life. He realized well after the fact he should have insisted on being tested, because of how often professional drivers are accused of causing the accident, no matter what the circumstances. Perhaps that's what Payne and his lieutenant were thinking of. It would seem that way to me:

The patient was a victim in a car crash and Payne wanted the blood sample to show he had done nothing wrong, according to the officer’s written report.

The patient, William Gray, is a reserve police officer in Rigby, Idaho, according to the city’s police. They thanked Wubbels for protecting his rights.

Gray is a semi-truck driver and was on the road when a pickup truck fleeing from authorities slammed into him and his truck burst into flames, police reports say.


But of course, I could be wrong. Still, there is often a lot more to these stories than the crusading cop-bashers want to "face up to".

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Re: American cop watch

Postby maryjane48 » Sep 2nd, 2017, 8:46 pm

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Re: American cop watch

Postby Omnitheo » Sep 3rd, 2017, 8:54 am

seewood wrote:Talked to a friend/customer yesterday. His daughter, a recent recruit from Depot, just received a commendation from her detachment commander for saving a distraught girls life. Grabbed her arm before jumping off a bridge.
Your distaste for cops is very apparent. Really annoys me. How many punks, thieves, cons cause harm to those that are trying to do a very difficult job.
Granted not all should be cops and there is plenty of recent evidence of that, but after working with many over the years, the majority are there for the right reason and be thankful of that.
Perhaps if one were to post every time an officer was killed while on duty you might get a glimpse of the pain and suffering the community and family feels with a loss from someone trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem


Should it not be discussed when civil servants break the laws or perform their jobs poorly? We have endless politician bashing threads on these forums. A new post for any time a politician does something we don't like. Yet few posts about good things they do for the country. Why should police be held to a different standard? There's a post elsewhere on the forums about firefighters having a campfire in the middle of a fire ban zone. Should we not discuss that at all because other times there are good unrelated firefighters out doing a hazardous job?

It's important to highlight those who abuse power. It's not about all cops being bad. But it's a reminder that not all cops are good.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby rustled » Sep 3rd, 2017, 9:08 am

Omnitheo wrote:Should it not be discussed when civil servants break the laws or perform their jobs poorly? We have endless politician bashing threads on these forums. A new post for any time a politician does something we don't like. Yet few posts about good things they do for the country. Why should police be held to a different standard? There's a post elsewhere on the forums about firefighters having a campfire in the middle of a fire ban zone. Should we not discuss that at all because other times there are good unrelated firefighters out doing a hazardous job?

It's important to highlight those who abuse power. It's not about all cops being bad. But it's a reminder that not all cops are good.

I suppose some of us feel it's important to highlight what we feel is an abuse of social media power. When posters do a poor job of presenting an issue in a fair light and therefore to the detriment of all, this too is an abuse of power.

It's not about all social media crusades being bad. But it's a reminder that not all social media crusades are good.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby my5cents » Sep 3rd, 2017, 9:11 am

rustled wrote:Interesting story, and interesting that you think the cop (Payne) wanted to prove the patient was at fault.

As I understand it, the unconscious patient was a professional driver, working when the accident happened. A friend who is a professional driver was involved in a terrible accident where there was loss of life. He realized well after the fact he should have insisted on being tested, because of how often professional drivers are accused of causing the accident, no matter what the circumstances. Perhaps that's what Payne and his lieutenant were thinking of. It would seem that way to me:


Well a couple of points...

The reason the police wanted the blood is irrelevant. (yes, I know that may seem like a bitter pill, if you feel they were trying to help the truck driver) BUT the law prescribes when and how they can obtain a sample, no matter the reason.

Something you don't hear much about, is that if blood was obtained for medical purposes, at a later time, the blood, or the results of the analysis can be obtained, by police, or insurance companies. The measurements are in a different scale, but can be interpreted to the scale used for legal/illegal driving.

So the craziness at the hospital wasn't needed.

Likely the actions and temperament of the officer was more in line with a perception of "contempt of cop" (the adult version of throwing a snit for not getting your way)

On the other hand, there was the potential liability (although it seems not as prevalent in the US, as in Canada) for the car chase that apparently caused the horrific crash.

But of course, I could be wrong. Still, there is often a lot more to these stories than the crusading cop-bashers want to "face up to".


I think in this case, unfortunately the "cop-bashers" have some ammo. Some news outlets have only shown the arrest of the nurse.

On line I saw the lead up, where the nurse is very politely and respectfully trying to reason with the cop, pointing out the established policy the hospital has with his police force and continually confirming that his demand for the blood did not comply with the policy establish between the hospital and his police force.

I'm sure, being the US, the civil lawyers are salivating about who gets this case.

Sad, this one is a black eye on the cop. The mayor of Salt Lake City and the Chief of Police have already apologized to the nurse and the hospital.

The cop may be the one driving truck soon.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby my5cents » Sep 3rd, 2017, 9:21 am

maryjane48 wrote: i dont need no lectures from cop apoligists. you want to ignore the facts then so be it . this problem of cops g9kne rogue wont end until people like you face up to it . if you dnt like a thread dont look at itc. simple.

I completely agree with maryjane48 (although she will completely miss my point)

She don't need no lectures from cop apologists. [double negative ?]

I was under the impression that these forums were for discussion, not necessarily agreement with each other.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby rustled » Sep 3rd, 2017, 9:28 am

my5cents wrote:...
On the other hand, there was the potential liability (although it seems not as prevalent in the US, as in Canada) for the car chase that apparently caused the horrific crash.
...

On line I saw the lead up, where the nurse is very politely and respectfully trying to reason with the cop, pointing out the established policy the hospital has with his police force and continually confirming that his demand for the blood did not comply with the policy establish between the hospital and his police force.

I'm sure, being the US, the civil lawyers are salivating about who gets this case.

Sad, this one is a black eye on the cop. The mayor of Salt Lake City and the Chief of Police have already apologized to the nurse and the hospital.

The cop may be the one driving truck soon.

Couple of things: As I understand it, the unconscious patient had absolutely nothing to do with the car chase, other than getting hit by the fleeing perp. I probably didn't do a good job of explaining how every time a professional driver is involved, lawyers try to pin responsibility for an accident on them through any discrepancy in their log book, or by managing to insinuate the driver was impaired under the more stringent alcohol level applied to professional drivers. The patient was a reserve officer, and to my mind the force hoped to spare him having to protect his good name in court. You're right, that doesn't excuse the officer not following the policy. Which brings us to the second thing:

And as I understand it, the department acknowledged they hadn't done a good job of ensuring their members understood the policy. Their lieutenant, Payne's superior, kept insisting blood be drawn.

So: why would end your post by suggesting Payne may end up driving truck? Do you the department, having acknowledged and apologized for their own part in this, will scapegoat him the way social media is scapegoating him?
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Re: American cop watch

Postby my5cents » Sep 3rd, 2017, 10:22 am

rustled wrote:Couple of things: As I understand it, the unconscious patient had absolutely nothing to do with the car chase, other than getting hit by the fleeing perp. I probably didn't do a good job of explaining how every time a professional driver is involved, lawyers try to pin responsibility for an accident on them through any discrepancy in their log book, or by managing to insinuate the driver was impaired under the more stringent alcohol level applied to professional drivers. The patient was a reserve officer, and to my mind the force hoped to spare him having to protect his good name in court. You're right, that doesn't excuse the officer not following the policy. Which brings us to the second thing:

And as I understand it, the department acknowledged they hadn't done a good job of ensuring their members understood the policy. Their lieutenant, Payne's superior, kept insisting blood be drawn.

So: why would end your post by suggesting Payne may end up driving truck? Do you the department, having acknowledged and apologized for their own part in this, will scapegoat him the way social media is scapegoating him?

I would agree that commercial vehicles are a target for civil suits in the US. That's because the vast majority of insurance policies (a little known fact here) in the US have major limits. A policy in a US jurisdiction may have a $100,000 limit (which is low) but further, likely has a $10,000 per person, per incident limit, as well. Likely commercial vehicle are better insured with higher limits.

Your insurance (even basic) is $200,000, completely available to one or all, you likely have $2, $3, or more million in liability, and again available to anyone in an accident where you are at fault.

The hospital and the police department have an agreement, (the nurse was attempting to show the cop) but that agreement was likely intended, mainly, to better inform hospital staff of their requirements, because the police members should definitely have a thorough knowledge of how they are to legally gather evidence, be that searching a home, a vehicle, or obtaining blood.

The fact that an internal memorandum of understanding between the police department and the hospital was not well distributed to police members has little or no weight in excusing these actions, in that the law that all police officers are bound by takes precedents.

I hadn't heard the part about the arresting officer being told to get the blood by his lieutenant, however an unlawful order, isn't an order. I also hadn't heard that the truck driver was a reserve officer, which is not a good thing for the arresting officer or the lieutenant as it could be alleged there was bias in ignoring the law.

I'm confident that the hospital would have taken blood, considering the state of the truck driver, so at a later date the results would always be available, either on the consent of the truck driver or by court order, should a law suit be initiated.

Maybe the officer and the lieutenant can pool their money and buy a truck together.

Yes, maybe they won't be dismissed but they are in DEEP doo doo.
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Re: American cop watch

Postby rustled » Sep 3rd, 2017, 2:33 pm

my5cents wrote:
rustled wrote:Couple of things: As I understand it, the unconscious patient had absolutely nothing to do with the car chase, other than getting hit by the fleeing perp. I probably didn't do a good job of explaining how every time a professional driver is involved, lawyers try to pin responsibility for an accident on them through any discrepancy in their log book, or by managing to insinuate the driver was impaired under the more stringent alcohol level applied to professional drivers. The patient was a reserve officer, and to my mind the force hoped to spare him having to protect his good name in court. You're right, that doesn't excuse the officer not following the policy. Which brings us to the second thing:

And as I understand it, the department acknowledged they hadn't done a good job of ensuring their members understood the policy. Their lieutenant, Payne's superior, kept insisting blood be drawn.

So: why would end your post by suggesting Payne may end up driving truck? Do you the department, having acknowledged and apologized for their own part in this, will scapegoat him the way social media is scapegoating him?

I would agree that commercial vehicles are a target for civil suits in the US. That's because the vast majority of insurance policies (a little known fact here) in the US have major limits. A policy in a US jurisdiction may have a $100,000 limit (which is low) but further, likely has a $10,000 per person, per incident limit, as well. Likely commercial vehicle are better insured with higher limits.

Your insurance (even basic) is $200,000, completely available to one or all, you likely have $2, $3, or more million in liability, and again available to anyone in an accident where you are at fault.

The hospital and the police department have an agreement, (the nurse was attempting to show the cop) but that agreement was likely intended, mainly, to better inform hospital staff of their requirements, because the police members should definitely have a thorough knowledge of how they are to legally gather evidence, be that searching a home, a vehicle, or obtaining blood.

The fact that an internal memorandum of understanding between the police department and the hospital was not well distributed to police members has little or no weight in excusing these actions, in that the law that all police officers are bound by takes precedents.

I hadn't heard the part about the arresting officer being told to get the blood by his lieutenant, however an unlawful order, isn't an order. I also hadn't heard that the truck driver was a reserve officer, which is not a good thing for the arresting officer or the lieutenant as it could be alleged there was bias in ignoring the law.

I'm confident that the hospital would have taken blood, considering the state of the truck driver, so at a later date the results would always be available, either on the consent of the truck driver or by court order, should a law suit be initiated.

Maybe the officer and the lieutenant can pool their money and buy a truck together.

Yes, maybe they won't be dismissed but they are in DEEP doo doo.

Are they? Why?

The department has acknowledged they hadn't done a good job of making sure the policy was understood. All of this was in the news story.

I don't get why anyone thinks someone must be made scapegoat here. These people all have to work together, and it's incumbent upon them to have a good working relationship. They get that, and it is what they're working toward, learning from problems like the one that arose here.

Isn't it bad enough for folk here that they've already been put through the wringer, dealing with the innocent victim of a dreadful accident? Why do members of the public feel someone must not have been acting in good faith, or with the best of intentions toward the victim?

And why do members of the public feel someone must be made to pay a severe consequence for what seems to have been largely a misunderstanding badly handled while under stress?

This, to me, is the crux of this kind of crusade. Dig a little, and it's more about exacting a pound of flesh, vengeance, etc. than it is about making the world a better place.
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