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Another shooting rocks the world

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Poindexter » Nov 7th, 2017, 12:05 pm

Glacier wrote:The long and short of it is that we need better enforcement of gun laws, not more gun laws. This guy should NOT have been able to get a gun. He should have been in jail perhaps. Existing laws state he shouldn't have had a gun, and yet he did. Enforce existing laws. Adding new laws that are only applied to law abiding citizens who voluntarily obey them does not make anyone safer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/23280/why ... en-shapiro


He did serve a year in military jail for domestic abuse which obviously didn't help.
The fact he filled out all the required paperwork but still managed to purchase a weapon is something they should address by either charging the gun seller, or changing the way information provided on the paperwork is verified if the seller of the gun did everything appropriately.
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Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:09 pm

Glacier wrote:The long and short of it is that we need better enforcement of gun laws, not more gun laws. This guy should NOT have been able to get a gun. He should have been in jail perhaps. Existing laws state he shouldn't have had a gun, and yet he did. Enforce existing laws. Adding new laws that are only applied to law abiding citizens who voluntarily obey them does not make anyone safer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/23280/why ... en-shapiro

Do you not see the fallacies in your arguments?
1. The laws as they are are difficult to apply, not least because of the widespread availability of guns.
2. If the current laws are not being enforced, maybe they are unenforceable and better laws are the solution. I doubt that you or I could reasonably recommend what those laws should be.
3. New laws especially when they replace old laws, do not just get applied to and by law abiding citizens, but rather can have more widespread effects, including making it harder for criminals to break the law in the ways they currently can do and easier to catch them when they do. This complaint that laws only affect law abiding people is one of the most often repeated themes by the pro-gun lobby and it is just so obviously wrong. Laws can have widespread consequences, not always good, but they certainly do not just affect law abiding people. This is true even when they are only applied to them.

While it is clear that you were just stating your non-expert opinion, like Shapiro, it is unfortunate that so many non-experts with skin in the game are spouting their opinions without being so clear about their own limitations. We need to bring in real experts, people who understand the situation, people who have studied it in detail and who can provide workable solutions. We need politicians who are willing to put the law in their hands and not just play to their financiers or more extreme supporters. The end result may even mean more guns on the streets, or very few, but doubling down and demanding that more law enforcement is the solution, ignores the fact that while it may be part of the solution, the solution is almost certainly nowhere near as simple as the partisans on both sides would have you believe.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
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Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:26 pm

Verum wrote:Do you not see the fallacies in your arguments?
1. The laws as they are are difficult to apply, not least because of the widespread availability of guns.
2. If the current laws are not being enforced, maybe they are unenforceable and better laws are the solution. I doubt that you or I could reasonably recommend what those laws should be.
3. New laws especially when they replace old laws, do not just get applied to and by law abiding citizens, but rather can have more widespread effects, including making it harder for criminals to break the law in the ways they currently can do and easier to catch them when they do. This complaint that laws only affect law abiding people is one of the most often repeated themes by the pro-gun lobby and it is just so obviously wrong. Laws can have widespread consequences, not always good, but they certainly do not just affect law abiding people. This is true even when they are only applied to them.

While it is clear that you were just stating your non-expert opinion, like Shapiro, it is unfortunate that so many non-experts with skin in the game are spouting their opinions without being so clear about their own limitations. We need to bring in real experts, people who understand the situation, people who have studied it in detail and who can provide workable solutions. We need politicians who are willing to put the law in their hands and not just play to their financiers or more extreme supporters. The end result may even mean more guns on the streets, or very few, but doubling down and demanding that more law enforcement is the solution, ignores the fact that while it may be part of the solution, the solution is almost certainly nowhere near as simple as the partisans on both sides would have you believe.

You are also not an expert. I agree, bring in real experts, and focus on reducing crime, violence, and murder.

Anyway, the law is not hard to apply. They should have had the guy on the FBI list. He was not there. Experts should figure out what the hell happened here so it never happens again.

BTW, far fewer people are owning guns these days in the USA. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sug ... 82326.html
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Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:36 pm

Glacier wrote:You are also not an expert. I agree, bring in real experts, and focus on reducing crime, violence, and murder.

Anyway, the law is not hard to apply. They should have had the guy on the FBI list. He was not there. Experts should figure out what the hell happened here so it never happens again.

BTW, far fewer people are owning guns these days in the USA. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sug ... 82326.html

Certainly and I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was.
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Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby maryjane48 » Nov 14th, 2017, 10:52 am

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Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Queen K » Nov 14th, 2017, 10:58 am

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#211517


http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/us/califo ... index.html

Four dead, including the shooter now. Seven different shooting sites.

"Now is not the time to talk about gun control!" ya right. When?
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Re: Las Vegas Shooting 50+DEAD 400+Injured

Postby Dizzy1 » Dec 6th, 2017, 1:29 pm

Had some meetings get pushed back a day, so we decided to rebook ourselves for a quick detour thru this awesome city.

There were a few flowers on the sidewalk across the street at the Vegas Village, but the official memorial has been moved into the Arts District up by Charleston

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting 50+DEAD 400+Injured

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 6th, 2017, 5:03 pm

Tucker probes unanswered questions

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/11/02/t ... g-massacre

We can see that there [were] exits in the plans, in the maps. And then when you're actually there, you can see that most of the exits were blocked, many of the exits were behind fences, and there [were] really only two places in which to escape," Eiland said. "And that's very concerning, especially when people got hit and killed ten minutes after the shooting started."

As for gunman Stephen Paddock, Eiland revealed that he arrived at the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino with ten bags, and two bellhops helped him carry those bags to his room on the 32nd floor. He said those bags contained more than 20 guns and 5,000 rounds of ammunition.
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