54562
50833

Jones closing gap to Moore

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Snman » Dec 13th, 2017, 6:26 am

Decency prevailed. Who'd have guessed, except Glacier. Glad I was wrong.
Snman
Generalissimo Postalot
 
Posts: 894
Likes: 917 posts
Liked in: 587 posts
Joined: Aug 6th, 2006, 6:27 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Poindexter » Dec 13th, 2017, 7:45 am

Republicans in Alabama who still voted for Moore, after all of the credible allegations, probably won't like who they see in the mirror this morning. It's not just the loss of the election they'll have to deal with but the loss of their own self respect. They paid quite a price by choosing party over values and in return they got nothing except an empty space where thier highly touted morality used to reside.

2 people like this post.
User avatar
Poindexter
Guru
 
Posts: 5281
Likes: 3207 posts
Liked in: 3765 posts
Joined: May 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby techrtr » Dec 13th, 2017, 7:58 am

Ha ha, the forces of racism and ignorance thought they had it in the bag. thank you good people of Alabama.

Bsuds likes this post.
techrtr
Generalissimo Postalot
 
Posts: 916
Likes: 73 posts
Liked in: 851 posts
Joined: Jul 5th, 2005, 7:47 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby RupertBear » Dec 13th, 2017, 9:36 am

Poindexter wrote:Republicans in Alabama who still voted for Moore, after all of the credible allegations, probably won't like who they see in the mirror this morning. It's not just the loss of the election they'll have to deal with but the loss of their own self respect. They paid quite a price by choosing party over values and in return they got nothing except an empty space where thier highly touted morality used to reside.


Unfortunately, I don't think that those who voted for Moore will feel that way.
Instead, I think they will look in the mirror and tell themselves that the president of the United States -- the man they voted for -- Donald Trump, told them that it is better to have a pedophile in office than a democrat, so they were just being patriotic and following the instructions of their president.

Poindexter likes this post.
RupertBear
Fledgling
 
Posts: 319
Likes: 161 posts
Liked in: 322 posts
Joined: Feb 24th, 2010, 10:00 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Glacier » Dec 13th, 2017, 10:45 am

Verum wrote:Have you evidence of this?

Well, as ocassional thoughts pointed out when New Gingrich was in trouble, there are two different types of conservatives. There's a Steve Bannon hard-drinking, immoral, unfaithful, womanizing conservatives, and there are Christian conservatives. As per Ocassional Thoughts' notes, they make strange bed fellows. The Steve Bannon/Donald Trump wing is far less likely to care what moral misdeeds you're accused of than the other wing. My in-laws are Republican voters, and a good example of this divide. The FIL loved Trump thinking he was the best presidential candidate ever while the MIL who falls into the other wing of the Republican party couldn't stand him to such a degree that she did not vote Republican for the first time in her life.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 26743
Likes: 2806 posts
Liked in: 8927 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Omnitheo » Dec 13th, 2017, 10:59 am

So many christians chose to stand behind Moore though.
"The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all Canadians, every one of us, even when it is uncomfortable."
- Justin Trudeau

maryjane48 likes this post.
User avatar
Omnitheo
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3936
Likes: 5727 posts
Liked in: 2864 posts
Joined: Jul 19th, 2011, 10:10 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Verum » Dec 13th, 2017, 11:11 am

Glacier wrote:
Verum wrote:Have you evidence of this?

Well, as ocassional thoughts pointed out when New Gingrich was in trouble, there are two different types of conservatives. There's a Steve Bannon hard-drinking, immoral, unfaithful, womanizing conservatives, and there are Christian conservatives. As per Ocassional Thoughts' notes, they make strange bed fellows. The Steve Bannon/Donald Trump wing is far less likely to care what moral misdeeds you're accused of than the other wing. My in-laws are Republican voters, and a good example of this divide. The FIL loved Trump thinking he was the best presidential candidate ever while the MIL who falls into the other wing of the Republican party couldn't stand him to such a degree that she did not vote Republican for the first time in her life.

Unfortunately for that narrative Christians in general voted for Trump. Especially White evangelical ones who voted for Trump with 81% support. Mainline Protestants voted 58% for Trump, Catholics voted 52% for Trump, and Mormons voted 61% for Trump. Jews, Atheists and non-Christian faiths voted for Trump at between 24% and 29%: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump. I suspect, though doubt I could find the numbers if I looked, that the majority of those who consider themselves to be Christians, and especially those who are evangelical Christians, who voted in this Alabama election, would have by a majority, supported Moore. It is a myth that Christians particularly demand moral fibre of their political leaders and I suspect such extends to their own personal behaviours too, with the case of the US being about the worst developed country for teenage pregnancy and STDs while also being about the only one to push abstinence-only sex ed widely. That is to say, by their own morality, which encourages abstinence, they are demonstrably failing miserably when compared with other countries who push a less Christian morality driven approach of actual sex-ed. It just seems to me that Christians aren't particularly good at behaving in a Christian manner.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Generalissimo Postalot
 
Posts: 973
Likes: 411 posts
Liked in: 742 posts
Joined: Oct 6th, 2017, 12:31 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Queen K » Dec 13th, 2017, 11:33 am

Seeing that Jones mopped the floor with Roy Moore in Alabama, I am heartened at last.
Our saddest days are when we add up our losses, and losses seem to be our saddest when we lose our best. Proud to be a "Leaf-licker" and I know who else is too. **smiles**
User avatar
Queen K
Queen of the Castle
 
Posts: 51768
Likes: 11418 posts
Liked in: 11933 posts
Joined: Jan 31st, 2007, 12:39 pm
Location: What? You mean here?

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Glacier » Dec 13th, 2017, 12:06 pm

Verum wrote:Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump.

I speak in generalities, my friend. Large numbers of blacks who are also Christian came out to vote for Jones, though, according to my facebook feed, they were prevented from voting.

voterturnout.jpg


The more religious a person is, the more they care about moral issues (and therefore, less about economic issues). That's a very broad generality, and is only a generalization. There are more exceptions to the rule, but it's just a generality. When you have large numbers of black voters coming out to vote for Obama in California, they voted down prop-8 because they're more religious and conservative on social issues than most whites, left and right.

You are right that white evangelicals largely supported Trump, but digging down further reveals some nuance. For example, this Venn diagram from Katherine Hayhoe explains that evangelical and religious are not synonyms.

evbeliefs.jpg


You can read several articles on why Trump won, and see that evangelicals are not really all that religious. Christianity for irreligious evangelicals is about politics, not God. In many ways, Trump represents a post-religious right, but since we're talking about a spectrum and in generalities, many evangelicals who are quite religious are more into politics than god/church/moral/spiritual matters, so they love trump too because of his politics. There are many irreligious conservatives who don't like Trump either, but as a general rule there is correlation between being religious and being against Trump when all else is equal, at least from what I've read.

As for Moore, clearly we've seen a MASSIVE shift in support away from him. It would be like of the NDP won the Peace River or West Kelowna in the Spring. It's a massive shift in voter support. I can't think of another election anywhere where this percentage of people switched sides.

Who were these people? I would guess that the vast majority were Christian (which isn't hard since pretty much everyone in that state is a Christian of one flavor or another), but I supposed the question is, where they the more religious ones or the cultural ones? Or was it a mix of both? It's hard to say, and to be honest, given the way politics is such a mixed fustercluck, it wouldn't be surprised either way.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 26743
Likes: 2806 posts
Liked in: 8927 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Poindexter » Dec 13th, 2017, 12:29 pm

Verum Wrote: Unfortunately for that narrative Christians in general voted for Trump.


And the reason is somewhat shocking.
Falwell told Time magazine in 2005 that the impact of “Left Behind” on Christianity was “probably greater than that of any other book in modern times,


This fiction novel is considered gospel by many and it claims that the Rapture will not occur unless Jerusalem is made the capital of Israel again. How messed up is that?
User avatar
Poindexter
Guru
 
Posts: 5281
Likes: 3207 posts
Liked in: 3765 posts
Joined: May 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Glacier » Dec 13th, 2017, 12:35 pm

Poindexter wrote:This fiction novel is considered gospel by many and it claims that the Rapture will not occur unless Jerusalem is made the capital of Israel again. How messed up is that?

I saw that movie. Horrible movie, and doesn't match anything I got out of the Bible. It basically took all the allegories in Revelation, and pretended they were literal and take place today, and then added in this rapture bit, which is a modern 20th century invention.

As for Jerusalem, it is the capital city of Israel, and has been since 1948 (despite conspiracy theorist, white nationalist, Isamlofacist, and other Anti-Semetic claims to the contrary).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jerusal ... -1.4436795
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 26743
Likes: 2806 posts
Liked in: 8927 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Verum » Dec 13th, 2017, 12:51 pm

Glacier wrote:
Verum wrote:Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump.

I speak in generalities, my friend. Large numbers of blacks who are also Christian came out to vote for Jones, though, according to my facebook feed, they were prevented from voting.

voterturnout.jpg


The more religious a person is, the more they care about moral issues (and therefore, less about economic issues). That's a very broad generality, and is only a generalization. This is too broad a statement to be particularly meaningful.Do they care about their own morality, the morality of their leaders, the morality of others, imposing their morality on others, etc.? I would contend that the religious are more likely to care about the imposition of their morality on others (hence the support for Moore), than the non religious, but that the non religious are more concerned with the behaviour of their leaders (hence Al Franken). There are more exceptions to the rule, but it's just a generality. When you have large numbers of black voters coming out to vote for Obama in California, they voted down prop-8 because they're more religious and conservative on social issues than most whites, left and right. A good example of imposing one's own morality on others, rather than focusing on one's own morality or the morality of one's leaders.

You are right that white evangelicals largely supported Trump, but digging down further reveals some nuance. For example, this Venn diagram from Katherine Hayhoe explains that evangelical and religious are not synonyms.

evbeliefs.jpg


You can read several articles on why Trump won, and see that evangelicals are not really all that religious. Christianity for irreligious evangelicals is about politics, not God. In many ways, Trump represents a post-religious right, but since we're talking about a spectrum and in generalities, many evangelicals who are quite religious are more into politics than god/church/moral/spiritual matters, so they love trump too because of his politics. There are many irreligious conservatives who don't like Trump either, but as a general rule there is correlation between being religious and being against Trump when all else is equal, at least from what I've read.

Yes, there may be a correlation between being more religious within a group and being against the likes of Trump, while that group might be in general more pro-Trump than other groups, but that does not remove the fact that those who consider themselves to be Christian, voted for Trump and Moore. It may be a bitter pill to swallow for some, but the fact is that Christianity and particularly White Christianity in America is tied to support for the likes of Moore, Trump and their ilk and there are lots of numbers to support this. We can get into a sort of no-true-scotsman argument about what constitutes a Christian, but since we do not have an objective measurement of what it is to be more Christian or not, we must accept those who claim to be Christian at their word. And they do essentially define what it is to be Christian, no matter how un-Christ-like it may be. I'm not advocating for discrimination against Christians, but we should be particularly careful vetting them when they come to Canada (just kidding).

I hope that this marks the turning point, where Republicans and conservatives start rejecting the all too attractive populist politicians, the "fake news" rhetoric and rather get back to picking sensible, boring but capable people. Give us someone that intellectuals can vote for, someone who understands economics, foreign policy, making systems efficient and effective. Is that too much to ask for? It is sad that the Democrats and liberals seem to dominate in these areas these days.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Generalissimo Postalot
 
Posts: 973
Likes: 411 posts
Liked in: 742 posts
Joined: Oct 6th, 2017, 12:31 am

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Urbane » Dec 13th, 2017, 1:32 pm

How yesterday's vote went by age in Alabama:
Attachments
Vote.jpg
User avatar
Urbane
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 20548
Likes: 7919 posts
Liked in: 9566 posts
Joined: Jul 8th, 2007, 7:41 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 13th, 2017, 1:59 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/ ... index.html


Why the gop should worry leading up to 2018 [icon_lol2.gif]
User avatar
maryjane48
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 17124
Likes: 10586 posts
Liked in: 2665 posts
Joined: May 28th, 2010, 7:58 pm

Re: Jones closing gap to Moore

Postby Poindexter » Dec 13th, 2017, 2:05 pm

Listening to the coverage leading up to this election it reminded me of the coverage during the presidential election. Pundits have a tendency to pigeon hole voters into segments and in my opinion impact how each segment votes. For example, the turn out of black and millennial voters was said to be key for a Jones and Hillary victory. While that may be true, to signal out these two groups they're basically telling older white Conservatives that the democrats don't represent them. During the presidential election the media made the democrats out to be the party of immigrants and minorities. It's unfortunate because as history has proven, everyone in the economy has statistically done better financially when a democrat is in office.

2 people like this post.
User avatar
Poindexter
Guru
 
Posts: 5281
Likes: 3207 posts
Liked in: 3765 posts
Joined: May 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

PreviousNext

Return to World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests