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The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby The Green Barbarian » Dec 21st, 2017, 8:32 am

maryjane48 wrote:I havent been caught writing misleading headlins ]


uh yes, you have. Over and over again.
3.7 cents kwh in alberta is a lie. The science is settled - wind turbines suck.

Not all leftists are stupid, but most stupid people are leftists.

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby The Green Barbarian » Dec 21st, 2017, 8:33 am

maryjane48 wrote:
Hg should be ashamed for misrepresenting the facts [icon_lol2.gif]


Except that he hasn't done that. Big Green are a bunch evil scum.
3.7 cents kwh in alberta is a lie. The science is settled - wind turbines suck.

Not all leftists are stupid, but most stupid people are leftists.

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Jflem1983 » Dec 21st, 2017, 11:59 am

This is good for Canadian farmers.
We don't reach for handouts we reach for those who are down . "Garth Brooks "

You have got to stand for something . Or you will fall for anything "Aaron Tippin"
MAKE ALBERTA GREAT AGAIN

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby alanjh595 » Dec 21st, 2017, 3:14 pm

Jflem1983 wrote:This is good for Canadian farmers.


Not so good for Canadian food consumers.

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Verum » Dec 21st, 2017, 3:37 pm

alanjh595 wrote:
Jflem1983 wrote:This is good for Canadian farmers.


Not so good for Canadian food consumers.

We live in a Capitalist economy. If someone is driving up demand for a good, the price will almost certainly go up too, at least in the short to medium term. That's the nature of the beast. If you have a problem with it, you might prefer Communism.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Ka-El » Dec 21st, 2017, 3:39 pm

The Green Barbarian wrote:
maryjane48 wrote:I havent been caught writing misleading headlins ]

uh yes, you have. Over and over again.

Yup - feared so mj. Busted :smt045
“One of the biggest challenges we have to our democracy is the degree to
which we don’t share a common baseline of facts” - Barack Obama 2018

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby alanjh595 » Dec 21st, 2017, 3:44 pm

Jflem1983 wrote:This is good for Canadian farmers.


alanjh595 wrote:Not so good for Canadian food consumers.

Verum wrote:We live in a Capitalist economy. If someone is driving up demand for a good, the price will almost certainly go up too, at least in the short to medium term. That's the nature of the beast. If you have a problem with it, you might prefer Communism.


I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with it at all. How about preaching your perspective to the renters of Kelowna real estate.? Good luck, may peace be with you.

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 21st, 2017, 3:46 pm

Lol they are only misleading if you want to ignore the facts . I cant help if some folks want to remain ignorant of reality . Merry xmas :130: [icon_lol2.gif]
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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Verum » Dec 21st, 2017, 7:45 pm

alanjh595 wrote:
Jflem1983 wrote:This is good for Canadian farmers.


alanjh595 wrote:Not so good for Canadian food consumers.

Verum wrote:We live in a Capitalist economy. If someone is driving up demand for a good, the price will almost certainly go up too, at least in the short to medium term. That's the nature of the beast. If you have a problem with it, you might prefer Communism.


I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with it at all. How about preaching your perspective to the renters of Kelowna real estate.? Good luck, may peace be with you.

Sorry I misinterpreted your post. If anyone complains to me about rental prices, I will point out how it is driven by supply and demand with some silly market shenanigans going on. I'd also point out how they have significant power to influence the supply through municipal election votes. But there is no way we are going to have cheap rent with quality homes in relatively low density housing, unless Kelowna becomes a terrible place to live. The problem is that so many want a single family home, with a bit of land, a driveway for 2 cars, etc. which just keeps up pressure on land and increases cost of providing accommodation. In fairness, it's not as if Kelowna is actually that expensive for rent when compared with other relatively desirable locations.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:09 pm

Verum wrote:HG, does this reduce EU carbon footprint relative to that which they would otherwise have?
Will this make it more likely that they will meet stated goals of CO2 emission?
Are they driving up costs of food for EU citizens?
What downside does this have for the EU beyond increasing fuel costs, which is their choice, and prolonging the use of diesel cars, which are a trade-off?

It's a bit rich to whine about the EU and when they are actually making being Green work fairly well for their citizens. They are generally far Greener than we are, with <50% the CO2 emissions per person and we could certainly learn from them in many ways, since they have smaller, better vehicles, similar productivity with fewer resources, high-density living with similar quality of life, etc. Of course, they could learn from us too, since we do some things rather well, but being Green certainly isn't one of them.


1) No. It doesn't. They are simply transferring their CO2 footprint to another country, like Indonesia (palm oil production). It is likely actually increasing their total carbon footprint when consider the jungle burnt, the regular diesel used by the Indonesian farmers, the bunker oil used by the ships, the processing into biodiesel etc. As of 2015 Indonesia is ranked as the sixth biggest producer of greenhouse gas due to deforesting (burning) for palm oil and paper plantations.

2) It is inescapable fact that ethanol production in the US drove up corm prices, which in turn drove up livestock feed prices, which in turn drove up livestock prices. Similar effects are coming from conversion of food acreages to diesel biofuel production. Yes, I have noted a rise in cooking oil prices.

Then you have to start factoring in the fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides manufactured for and used to grow the biofuel crops. The fuels used to work the land, transport the crops, process the crops. By the time you are done, it is little more than an analogy to money laundering. It is just "green laundering" to appease the folks who want to be "green" but won't reduce their consumption.
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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Verum » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:26 pm

hobbyguy wrote:
Verum wrote:HG, does this reduce EU carbon footprint relative to that which they would otherwise have?
Will this make it more likely that they will meet stated goals of CO2 emission?
Are they driving up costs of food for EU citizens?
What downside does this have for the EU beyond increasing fuel costs, which is their choice, and prolonging the use of diesel cars, which are a trade-off?

It's a bit rich to whine about the EU and when they are actually making being Green work fairly well for their citizens. They are generally far Greener than we are, with <50% the CO2 emissions per person and we could certainly learn from them in many ways, since they have smaller, better vehicles, similar productivity with fewer resources, high-density living with similar quality of life, etc. Of course, they could learn from us too, since we do some things rather well, but being Green certainly isn't one of them.

1) No. It doesn't. They are simply transferring their CO2 footprint to another country, like Indonesia (palm oil production). It is likely actually increasing their total carbon footprint when consider the jungle burnt, the regular diesel used by the Indonesian farmers, the bunker oil used by the ships, the processing into biodiesel etc. As of 2015 Indonesia is ranked as the sixth biggest producer of greenhouse gas due to deforesting (burning) for palm oil and paper plantations.If my reading of the report is correct, the end result is still a significant net reduction in CO2 emissions at about 50%.

2) It is inescapable fact that ethanol production in the US drove up corm prices, which in turn drove up livestock feed prices, which in turn drove up livestock prices. Similar effects are coming from conversion of food acreages to diesel biofuel production. Yes, I have noted a rise in cooking oil prices. So? Why would they care about what you pay for food or cooking oil. They don't need Canadian beef, or such, they have fairly good access to food, usually of significantly higher standard than we do.

Then you have to start factoring in the fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides manufactured for and used to grow the biofuel crops. The fuels used to work the land, transport the crops, process the crops. By the time you are done, it is little more than an analogy to money laundering. It is just "green laundering" to appease the folks who want to be "green" but won't reduce their consumption.

Again, I am quite certain that while it is not clean fuel by any means, it still has a smaller footprint than oil, especially tar sands oil and other difficult to extract oils. Complaining about it, when it is clear that their numbers suggest it is doing what they want, and especially complaining about what they are doing because it increases demand for something, pushing up the prices you pay, seems a bit pointless to me. How would you respond if they complained that Canadian consumption of oil was pushing up oil prices? It's pretty much the same thing.
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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Jflem1983 » Dec 21st, 2017, 10:41 pm

From what i can surmise. Its much worse for the environment than traditional drilling. However. It stands to be a polically correct way for farmers to get a bit better returns. These are rare now days.
Keep in mind farming is the only industry in the world pays retail and sells wholesale.
U have rogue governments like Notley attacking Canadiam farmers.
Many farms are basically staying afloat cuz God gave em oil wells to help pay the bills .
So if we move to bio diesel and such. Yes bad for environment for a ton of reasons. Bad for consumers of food . But good for farming. So i sorta support it. Not too often i agree with Europe
We don't reach for handouts we reach for those who are down . "Garth Brooks "

You have got to stand for something . Or you will fall for anything "Aaron Tippin"
MAKE ALBERTA GREAT AGAIN
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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Jlabute » Dec 21st, 2017, 11:32 pm

Biofuel also has a much lower energy density. It takes a lot of farm land to make a little biofuel which in turn has only 2/3 the energy density of gasoline. So drive 600km on a tank of gas, or 400km on a tank of ethanol. Even the guardian says biofuel is not a green alternative and those guys are green nuts.
I do diligence and sometimes diligence does me.

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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 22nd, 2017, 12:26 am

Verum:

Nope, you are looking for a "free lunch". Biodiesel from waste products is one thing, but biodiesel that requires inputs to grow, land to grow on, inputs to process, and inputs to transport winds up being little more than greenwashing.

The EU is just offshoring its GHG production to places like Indonesia and Australia.

The EPA analysis here: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/8311/epa-finds-palm-oil-biodiesel-doesnt-meet-minimum-ghg-reductions

from 2012 states that palm oil diesel only reduces GHG by 11%. They did not anticipate the massive deforestation that followed the boom in palm oil.
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Re: The "Green" group think has lost the plot

Postby Verum » Dec 22nd, 2017, 8:27 am

hobbyguy wrote:Verum:

Nope, you are looking for a "free lunch". Biodiesel from waste products is one thing, but biodiesel that requires inputs to grow, land to grow on, inputs to process, and inputs to transport winds up being little more than greenwashing.

The EU is just offshoring its GHG production to places like Indonesia and Australia.

The EPA analysis here: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/8311/epa-finds-palm-oil-biodiesel-doesnt-meet-minimum-ghg-reductions

from 2012 states that palm oil diesel only reduces GHG by 11%. They did not anticipate the massive deforestation that followed the boom in palm oil.

So the EPA found an 11-17% reduction in 2012, and the EU found a different thing, which is a reduction of 50% in 2017. So it comes down to which do I trust? Let me put it this way, one has a track record of doing the right thing, such as preserving fish stocks better than other similar bodies on the planet, keeping their environment relatively clean, etc. I guess I trust the EU on this one.
Also, do you have the same qualms about Alberta oil, which is demonstrably more polluting to extract than some other sources of oil?
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