Travon and the stand your ground law.

[Oxl3y]

Anyone who has already tried and convicted George Zimmerman needs to read the article that Steel has provided via link in his last post.

A man frustrated with break ins in his neighborhood takes the law into his own hands and murders an innocent child. Yep sounds about right.

[thepainter]

A man frustrated with break ins in his neighborhood takes the law into his own hands and murders an innocent child. Yep sounds about right.

A 6 foot 3, seventeen year old Black male isn't exactly what I classify as a "child".

[Oxl3y]

A 6 foot 3, seventeen year old Black male isn't exactly what I classify as a "child".

The 17 years old part makes hims a child, so you think its ok to murder children if they are tall?

[steven lloyd]

A man frustrated with break ins in his neighborhood takes the law into his own hands and murders an innocent child.

Hmmm, maybe there was some premeditation. Perhaps he should be tried for first degree instead of second degree murder.

[mexicalidreamer]

Several of you are absolutely jumping to conclusions here. The facts are not all known. Those who have convicted him already are doing so with conjecture only.

You are all entitled to your opinions but it's dangerous to convict a man on any grounds other than the whole story. I have read and heard what most of you have and I don't get a real clear feeling either way.

As per the link that steel posted, the part where Zimmerman apparently said screw this, they always get away, or words to that effect to himself after the dispatcher told him that they didn't need him to follow Trayvon, makes sense to me. It explains why he continued to pursue Trayvon after being told not too. It doesn't make his decision any less wrong but it does make it easier to understand.

i am not defending this man. he may well be guilty and if he is then he deserves nothing less than 25 years to life.

[Oxl3y]

If he had gone home when told the kid would still be alive, in no way should self defense be allowed as an excuse. He put himself into a vulnerable position (if you are to believe his asinine story) say I went to a bar and antagonized/threatened/assaulted someone should I be allowed to kill them if they strike me for my abuse (omg self defense!).

[fvkasm2x]

If he had gone home when told the kid would still be alive, in no way should self defense be allowed as an excuse. He put himself into a vulnerable position (if you are to believe his asinine story) say I went to a bar and antagonized/threatened/assaulted someone should I be allowed to kill them if they strike me for my abuse (omg self defense!).

If the "kid" had kept his hands to himself, he'd still be a live. There was no reason to even approach/acknowledge Zimmerman. If I think I'm being followed at night, I don't engage the person... I get away from them.

Your comparison also doesn't hold weight. You have no evidence that Zimmerman antagonized/threatened or assaulted Martin. For all we know, Martin didn't like being followed, so he struck Zimmerman first.

[fvkasm2x]

Several of you are absolutely jumping to conclusions here. The facts are not all known. Those who have convicted him already are doing so with conjecture only.

You expect people to think logically? You certainly have more hope for people than I do.

[Oxl3y]

If the "kid" had kept his hands to himself, he'd still be a live. There was no reason to even approach/acknowledge Zimmerman. If I think I'm being followed at night, I don't engage the person... I get away from them.

Your comparison also doesn't hold weight. You have no evidence that Zimmerman antagonized/threatened or assaulted Martin. For all we know, Martin didn't like being followed, so he struck Zimmerman first.

With all due respect you are completely out to lunch...so you'd just ignore some guy following you at night that pulls a gun on you? The only self defense happening here was Trayvon's and it got him killed.

[fvkasm2x]

With all due respect you are completely out to lunch...so you'd just ignore some guy following you at night that pulls a gun on you? The only self defense happening here was Trayvon's and it got him killed.

No offense taken at all. I was thinking the same thing about your view on the matter.

I have no idea what happened that night. You seem to know exactly what happened. You assume the gun got pulled BEFORE any sort of physical scuffle. You assume Martin put his hands on Zimmerman in self defense and not aggression. I don't know if either of those are true.

I'll go with Occam's Razor here, since we haven't been given all the facts and we may never. The logical chain of events went something like this:

Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious and followed him (and called the cops). Martin got offended/paranoid/scared/upset/mad... whatever it was, and confronted Zimmerman. A scuffle ensued and Martin got shot.

Zimmerman made a lot of mistakes that night and for all I know, he is a racist lunatic intent on killing someone. But I'm not going to blindly label him as such and call him a murderer... when it's equally possible that Martin was a wannabe thug and jumped Zimmerman thinking "I'll show this white boy who's boss" and then got shot for being a macho *bleep*.

Either is entirely possible (or a bit of both), but you refuse to even entertain the latter concept.

[Oxl3y]

I refuse to entertain any other idea because the fact remains that if Zimmerman had just gone home like the police had asked no one would be dead right now, the fault is 100% his and there should be consequences. At the very least this was man slaughter.

[steven lloyd]

I'll go with Occam's Razor here, since we haven't been given all the facts and we may never. The logical chain of events went something like this:

Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious and followed him (and called the cops). Martin got offended/paranoid/scared/upset/mad... whatever it was, and confronted Zimmerman. A scuffle ensued and Martin got shot.

I’ll go with Occam’s razor here based on the facts we do have. Zimmerman called the cops and was told to back off and stop following Travon. He didn’t do that. He had a loaded gun and continued to follow Travon. It is fairly obvious Zimmerman was feeling pretty “macho” with a gun (guns tend to do that with some people). Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground - he was tracking Travon. That much we do know. Had Zimmeran obeyed the police operator Travon would be alive.

Following - not running from - Travon in possession of a loaded gun (intent) and frustrated with break-ins in neighbourhood (premeditation) makes it first degree murder.

God bless America (may we never become that barbaric).

[steven lloyd]

... it's dangerous to convict a man on any grounds other than the whole story.

As dangerous as being shot dead based on erroneous and inadequate conjecture only ? Only for the dead guy I guess.

[fvkasm2x]

I’ll go with Occam’s razor here based on the facts we do have. Zimmerman called the cops and was told to back off and stop following Travon. He didn’t do that. He had a loaded gun and continued to follow Travon. It is fairly obvious Zimmerman was feeling pretty “macho” with a gun (guns tend to do that with some people). Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground - he was tracking Travon. That much we do know. Had Zimmeran obeyed the police operator Travon would be alive.

Following - not running from - Travon in possession of a loaded gun (intent) and frustrated with break-ins in neighbourhood (premeditation) makes it first degree murder.

God bless America (may we never become that barbaric).

Well I can't disagree with anything that you said... other than the bolded part. Since he was legally allowed to carry the gun, there is no way to prove he carried it with intent to kill. Throw in the "alleged" assault by Martin and things certainly get cloudy. Definitely not an easy case...

[steelrules]

I'm amazed at how some contributors to this topic choose to ignore some very important facts.

First
Zimmerman was Block Watch and as far as I can tell Block Watch means you keep an eye on a criminal, suspicous person, or perpetrator till the police arrive, so with that said any argument that Zimmerman was stalking Martin is moot.

Second
Injuries to Zimmerman show that Martin did come in physical contact with Zimmerman the only question here is was the shot fired before or after this contact, before would make it manslaughter, after would make it justified.

Third
A member on this board continues to call Martin a child, the last time I checked 17 year olds are adults under the law.

Fourth
Martins gang affiliations and trouble at school are ignored as is his physical stature of over 6ft tall, this fact by it's self puts Zimmerman in a situation where he could have been in fear of his life or severe bodly harm.

In the end this is a very sad situation for both the shooter and the Martin family, but it's being politicised to go after 2nd ammendment rights at a time when US citizens are buying guns at a rate of over FBI stat. 4 million background checks per month, a 3 fold increase over the pre Obama presidency.