Thursday, August 21st10.4°C
22938
22595

Who is to blame?

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.

Moderators: oneh2obabe, Jo, ferri, Triple 6

Who is to blame?

Postby WhatThe » Feb 21st, 2013, 4:20 pm

Who is to blame? The truth is we have nobody to blame but ourselves. The connection between poverty, mental health, education and health care, among other factors, and what we are witnessing today is inescapable and undeniable. We are as intimately connected to each other as we are to the earth and the processes that allow life to flourish. Yet somewhere in our collective minds we disconnect from this and view ourselves as individual and separate and that people make their own choices without influence. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

Right now BC has the second worst child poverty rates in Canada. How do we think that’s going to affect us down the road? Do we honestly believe those kids are going to be raised in a healthy environment with great expectation? What effect on that kids psyche will it have and how will it influence future "choices" he or she makes? More often than not it will be with negativity and diminished expectation.

How is it we are able to build great cities or send men to the moon or harness the power of nuclear fission? One of the primary answers is education. The ability and capacity for us to learn and pass on what we've learnt enables this. It's not something new; we only need look back in history to see examples. The Mayan and their renowned accurate to this day astronomical calendar, the advanced mathematics and logistical prowess of the Egyptians that built the pyramids or the Roman Empire who’s architectural and civil engineering techniques we use to this very day.
As important as education is to our collective well being we find a way to undercut ourselves. Whether that’s because we don’t understand the enormous importance of education or we are jaded and lament unions, the fact remains, we chronically underfund one of the primary foundations of modern society. This practice again continues, the newly tabled BC budget freezes education funding for three years.

When it comes to health care we do a pretty good job of treating the acute conditions, however, with mental health we can only assign ourselves a failing grade, though in some respects getting better. Awareness for example comes to mind. If one has a broken arm a trip to the ER quickly remedies it. Have a heart attack and we fly one to Vancouver for same day surgery. Have a mental health condition and one will be literally waiting weeks at best and months at worst. This type of care is abysmal and for a large part inaccessible. GP’s can do little more than suggest antipsychotic drugs, eat right and exercise. Even if one asks or the doctor suggests referral, depending on location, the wait list and availability of qualified professionals can and does push time waits upwards of six months. Addiction is also held under the umbrella of mental health but is subject to the same time constraints, it takes weeks just to get an initial assessment and should one opt for residential treatment, months. Some may suggest that private care is available or it’s not an emergency. Private care is unaffordable to the average income person and if smoking little more than Lysol and ephedrine (Meth) or injecting impure heroin or coke with contaminated needles isn’t an emergency I’d suggest we redefine the word. Vancouver’s downtown eastside is currently in the grips of a Hepatitis C and HIV epidemic with infection rates among the most at risk at 30 and 40 percent respectively.

Understanding the causal roots is of paramount importance. Over the last thirty years we have built a great body of evidence that is routinely ignored. We now know for example that addiction is not just a matter of will but is primarily driven by brain chemistry and the imbalance thereof. The ancient (hundreds of millions of years old) part of the brain known as the limbic system, the part primarily responsible for survival, has a very active role in addictions. The intimate and extremely complex role of the limbic system, neurochemistry, genetics, conditioned and unconditioned behaviour, trauma and environment puts the drive for addicts to use drugs, or those that suffer from alcoholism to drink, on par with the “basic” survival roles of fight or flight, to eat, not be eaten and procreation.

We often speak of personal responsibility but where is our collective responsibility? A single animal separated from the herd quickly becomes game for predators but in a herd we are protected; there is safety in numbers. It’s all too common now that we hear stories of people seeing someone in distress but simply walk by; it’s as if until it “hits close to home” that we become aware and distraught enough to help. We are individuals within a collective, not a collection of individuals and an isolationist mindset, or one of “they brought it on themselves”, do nothing to further our species, are detrimental to the whole and quite frankly, moves us away from what ensures our survival.
When we start combining these issues with the conditioned behaviour and ignorance of the general population, throw in laws like prohibition that quite literally play on the above and create the very people that everyone is afraid of (addicts, dealers, homeless and organized crime alike) we reach a critical mass scenario. In other words, we construct a self perpetuating cycle of poverty, violence and misery.
Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation, and war, and cruelty. People are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem.
User avatar
WhatThe
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 4020
Likes: 72 posts
Liked in: 106 posts
Joined: Feb 25th, 2009, 1:13 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Glacier » Feb 21st, 2013, 4:24 pm

"Some people say that poverty drives crime rates, but from what I've observed, it's the other way around."
~ Geert Wilders
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
User avatar
Glacier
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16166
Likes: 303 posts
Liked in: 1137 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 5:03 pm

What a bunk quote Glacier.

Poverty causing crime goes back to biblical times, let alone practically every social study ever done. Do poor people live longer and have happier lives as well? Social mobility? Education? lol.

But please, shoot from the hip, screw the data. The Conservatives are betting your votes on it.
Last edited by SurplusElect on Feb 21st, 2013, 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SurplusElect
Übergod
 
Posts: 1618
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 1:45 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Glacier » Feb 21st, 2013, 5:05 pm

Poverty causes crime like wearing a short skirt causes rape.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
User avatar
Glacier
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16166
Likes: 303 posts
Liked in: 1137 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 5:07 pm

Glacier wrote:Poverty causes crime like wearing a short skirt causes rape.


Aside from the ugliness of the comparison, you're severly incorrect.

Grabbing economic demographic data on people with criminal records...not like thst hasn't been ever looked at before.

Prisons are full of University educated people from upper middle class backgrounds!

Not to mention the comparison of a person's criminal justice experience, based on the quality of lawyer. I know overworked public defenders have the exact same resources as a lawyer at 500 a hour with a 20 grand retainer. Totally the same legal outcomes! Just ask Oj.

Even if financially well-off people were more criminally prone than the poor- the conviction rates wouldn't reflect it!
Last edited by SurplusElect on Feb 21st, 2013, 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SurplusElect
Übergod
 
Posts: 1618
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 1:45 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Captain Awesome » Feb 21st, 2013, 6:07 pm

WhatThe wrote:Right now BC has the second worst child poverty rates in Canada.


Let's be honest - having second worst poverty rates in BC, Canada is like being the second skinniest kid at a fat camp.
Sarcasm is like a good game of chess. Most people don't know how to play chess.
User avatar
Captain Awesome
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 22691
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 1363 posts
Joined: Jul 22nd, 2008, 5:06 pm
Location: The United Colonies of The Lizard People

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 6:26 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:Let's be honest - having second worst poverty rates in BC, Canada is like being the second skinniest kid at a fat camp.


Yeah, those poor kids have it so easy. Living in a downtown east-side resort - LIVING THE DREAM.
SurplusElect
Übergod
 
Posts: 1618
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 1:45 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Captain Awesome » Feb 21st, 2013, 6:33 pm

There isn't a whole lot of kids living there. At least when I lived there. Now I think it's mostly populated by hipsters.
Sarcasm is like a good game of chess. Most people don't know how to play chess.
User avatar
Captain Awesome
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 22691
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 1363 posts
Joined: Jul 22nd, 2008, 5:06 pm
Location: The United Colonies of The Lizard People

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 6:57 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:There isn't a whole lot of kids living there. At least when I lived there. Now I think it's mostly populated by hipsters.


Yeah, all the poor kids moved to Kits.
SurplusElect
Übergod
 
Posts: 1618
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 1:45 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby metallica » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:31 pm

Try to help yourself first, help your children and your elderly and your neigbours and then think about others if you are able. If you can't don't feel bad about yourselves and above all don't let others make you feel guilty about what you have. Share if you can, and if not don't worry about others worry about yourselves.
metallica
Übergod
 
Posts: 1944
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 26 posts
Joined: Apr 21st, 2010, 2:53 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby WhatThe » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:39 pm

Let's be honest - having second worst poverty rates in BC, Canada is like being the second skinniest kid at a fat camp.[/quote]

In relation to third world countries? Sure. Not the point though.
The point of my post was to draw attention to the idea that we home grow our own problems. That we foster an environment that lends itself to serious problems.
Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation, and war, and cruelty. People are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem.
User avatar
WhatThe
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 4020
Likes: 72 posts
Liked in: 106 posts
Joined: Feb 25th, 2009, 1:13 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby WhatThe » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:45 pm

Glacier wrote:"Some people say that poverty drives crime rates, but from what I've observed, it's the other way around."
~ Geert Wilders

If by this you/he mean greed and corruption from the powers that be in not fulfilling their duty of care, I'll agree.
Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation, and war, and cruelty. People are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem.
User avatar
WhatThe
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 4020
Likes: 72 posts
Liked in: 106 posts
Joined: Feb 25th, 2009, 1:13 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Glacier » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:59 pm

SurplusElect wrote:Aside from the ugliness of the comparison, you're severly incorrect.

Grabbing economic demographic data on people with criminal records...not like thst hasn't been ever looked at before.

If what you say is true, then we would see crime rates rise after the ression hit. In actual fact, the crime rate in the U.S. has continued to drop since the 2008 recession. There is no corellation between changes in the economy and crime rates. Crime drives poverty much more than the other way around.

P.S. I was raised by a single mother who was on welfare on more than one occassion, and I do not think I had a higher chance of criminal activity than my rich counterparts.

PPS. Who is to blame? I would say there is always some collective responsiblity, but iin the end, the buck stops with the individual committing the crime.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
User avatar
Glacier
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16166
Likes: 303 posts
Liked in: 1137 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby CorkSoaker » Feb 21st, 2013, 11:02 pm

Poverty causing crime? Not quite, however there are some strong correlations between poverty and crime. The interactions seem to be very complex and the exact mechanisms behind the interactions are not perfectly clear. Looking at aggregate crime rates for the whole country then almost across the board crime rates have been decreasing since the early 90s. However, if you were to look at regional or even neighbourhood data it can paint a different picture; Poorer neighbourhoods tend to have higher crime rates than those of higher socioeconomic status.
Last edited by CorkSoaker on Feb 22nd, 2013, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

It is often said that truth is the first casualty of any war
User avatar
CorkSoaker
Board Meister
 
Posts: 382
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: Dec 19th, 2010, 9:51 pm
Location: Southern Okanagan

Re: Who is to blame?

Postby Captain Awesome » Feb 21st, 2013, 11:08 pm

WhatThe wrote:In relation to third world countries? Sure. Not the point though.


Well, not even third world countries - I'd say even to our own country say 50 years ago. The standards of living went so much in the last 50 years that being poor these days has nothing to do with being poor back then. And poverty became a huge business for the govt - govt is directly benefiting from classifying as many people as possible as "poor". If it was up to them, they'd classify 50% of us as poor - all the better for them yet has very little connection to reality of things.

And I'm not saying it to pretend there's absolutely no poverty in Canada. I'm just saying the perception of poverty these days is quite different from real shape of things.
Sarcasm is like a good game of chess. Most people don't know how to play chess.
User avatar
Captain Awesome
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 22691
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 1363 posts
Joined: Jul 22nd, 2008, 5:06 pm
Location: The United Colonies of The Lizard People

Next

Return to Social, Economic and Environmental Concerns

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests