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Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.

Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 23rd, 2017, 9:14 pm

kgcayenne wrote:I checked out their site, and I'd like to see if the realtor on their staff will take a commission cut of 45%.

45% of the square root of bugger all is zero....so yeah, she probably would be fine with that.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 23rd, 2017, 9:18 pm

zensiert wrote:
Even Steven wrote:So everybody is happy. And nobody will apply to this job. What's the reason for the panties in a bunch?


Go and read HP’s second-to-last paragraph. It sums it up rather nicely.

Even Steven wrote:This might be true for not skilled labour and people with no high school diploma. May be then I'd buy this argument even then it's weak. But we're talking about educated professionals who never have to look for a job more than a week. They're not forced into hunger and slavery by evil employers. They work freelance, they work remotely, they work on projects from other countries over something called Internet, may be you've heard of it. They can pick and choose, and if they choose not to apply - they don't. Easy as pie.


I have seen my fair share of technology professionals caught between a rock and a hard place due to misfortunes of various kinds. It happens just as easily to them as it does to any other middle-class worker. But for many of us, it takes a hell of a lot longer than a week to find a job - even more so if you have specialized skills. The search could easily go on for months unless your skill set just happen to be smack in the middle of the latest tech craze du jour. Myself? I specialize in C# in leveraging MSSQL databases. Do you know what proportion of tech jobs call for that in Kelowna? Less than 1%. For me, finding a new job would take the better part of a year unless I am willing to relocate (which I cannot due to family). Hell, there are jobs out there right now that I would be sorely tempted to give my left ovary to get into, but I can’t because it involves relocation. And many employers are still not willing to do that whole remote thing - many to most want you on-site, even if you are a programmer.


Seriously?
So your theory is that if someone has a skill set that virtually nobody needs, they deserve to be highly paid even if nobody really needs them? Just because they don’t want to relocate.......not up on economic theory or reality, are you?

No wonder you are ranting about this...... [icon_lol2.gif]

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby lesliepaul » Nov 24th, 2017, 12:45 am

Some people on these forums with 5097 posts sure like to be critical of everybody else's posts and at the same time thinking they are the "messiah" to lead us all from our shortcomings........... [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif]
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby StraitTalk » Nov 24th, 2017, 2:11 am

Those of you using the argument "nobody is forcing you to apply there" are entirely missing the point, and entirely ridiculous for making such a statement. The original post, so-far as I can tell, says one thing - this is not enough pay for that level of skill.

Two people on my team where I work have similar styled roles requiring less education, being paid MUCH more. It's definitely sad (the sunshine tax), and it's why almost all of my friends who went to the IT industry live in Calgary now, and not Kelowna.

That said, it's true that they simply will not find someone for this work unless that person is very desperate and unwilling or unable to move, because there is lots of work in this field elsewhere paying much more.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 24th, 2017, 5:35 am

lesliepaul wrote:Some people on these forums with 5097 posts sure like to be critical of everybody else's posts and at the same time thinking they are the "messiah" to lead us all from our shortcomings........... [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif]

And which part of "those people’s" post are incorrect Señor Passive-Aggressive?

Perhaps If there weren’t posters coming up short in their illogical rants, a messiah wouldn’t be needed to point it out?
Or maybe extreme negativity that is misplaced is its own version of messianic complex......

But back to the topic, it’s a three month contract with a new business that clearly can’t afford anything, posted by people who haven’t run their own business before and who are clearly unqualified to know what they want for this position.

The OP clearly didn’t look at anything past the wages offered and it became personal because he/she would not want to be "forced" to take that wage.

If one really thinks that there was a serious and accurate attempt at defining a skill set, they simply didn’t notice the incongruous nature of the requirements......
Look at the lowest common denominator:
"Required experience:
Previous work experience considered an asset. At the very least the candidate should be able to provide examples of previous work in visualizing reports by querying SQL databases."


Does this really look like they are looking for a highly qualified person for a three month job? Especially when you view it in tandem with the wages offered?

If your answer is Yes, it is you that has the problem and you need to get some better training or experience.

I stand by my conclusion that the OP's rant was so riddled with holes that it is laughable.

Yeah, it must cost a mint to be in an office on the top floor of the Dolphins....one doesn’t have to be the Messiah to let out a hearty chortle on that one [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif]
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Even Steven » Nov 24th, 2017, 9:05 am

StraitTalk wrote:it's why almost all of my friends who went to the IT industry live in Calgary now, and not Kelowna


Oh Jesus. Stop comparing Kelowna's IT industry to that of Calgary or Vancouver, or San Francisco. They're not the same! They're not even close. And thus they don't command the same pay.

When you're in a bigger city of course the IT industry will be bigger, more companies will be competing for talent, to work on much larger projects and of course the pay will be different. Is that news to anybody? Right now there's somebody in Lumby who wires computers in a local trucking company complaining that systems support people in Kelowna are getting much more wiring networks for a local accounting company. Somebody in Kelowna running the network for a local accounting company is complaining about his buddy in Toronto getting paid 4 times as much because he's in charge of the network for the entire province. Same with software developers working on small apps in Kelowna vs. somebody in Vancouver who works for a financial startup - huge difference in pay. Not because of some evil sunshine tax or because local employers are greedy and all that BS - because the landscape of the industry is vastly different and so is pay.

You choose to live in Kelowna. You choose to work within the IT landscape here, in Kelowna. You choose to work for less money because of that. If you can't move local employers don't owe the same rate as you'd be doing in San Francisco because you're not doing the same work as in San Francisco.

But sitting in a small city and complaining how you have skills that should be paid $200K in larger city doesn't make sense even at the slightest. It's just as dumb as Kelowna Rockets players complaining they're not getting the same amount of coin as Sedin twins for doing the EXACT SAME WORK. Or local actor complaining he's not getting millions like Brad Pitt by being involved for small time projects in Kelowna. Does that look smart on any level?

And once again - nobody is forcing you to take the OP job. Just say no, and they'll be forced to up the rates because they won't find anybody. And if somebody says yes, that means there's a market for such jobs both with applicants and employers.

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Verum » Nov 24th, 2017, 2:43 pm

Even Steven wrote:
StraitTalk wrote:it's why almost all of my friends who went to the IT industry live in Calgary now, and not Kelowna


Oh Jesus. Stop comparing Kelowna's IT industry to that of Calgary or Vancouver, or San Francisco. They're not the same! They're not even close. And thus they don't command the same pay.

When you're in a bigger city of course the IT industry will be bigger, more companies will be competing for talent, to work on much larger projects and of course the pay will be different. Is that news to anybody? Right now there's somebody in Lumby who wires computers in a local trucking company complaining that systems support people in Kelowna are getting much more wiring networks for a local accounting company. Somebody in Kelowna running the network for a local accounting company is complaining about his buddy in Toronto getting paid 4 times as much because he's in charge of the network for the entire province. Same with software developers working on small apps in Kelowna vs. somebody in Vancouver who works for a financial startup - huge difference in pay. Not because of some evil sunshine tax or because local employers are greedy and all that BS - because the landscape of the industry is vastly different and so is pay.

You choose to live in Kelowna. You choose to work within the IT landscape here, in Kelowna. You choose to work for less money because of that. If you can't move local employers don't owe the same rate as you'd be doing in San Francisco because you're not doing the same work as in San Francisco.

But sitting in a small city and complaining how you have skills that should be paid $200K in larger city doesn't make sense even at the slightest. It's just as dumb as Kelowna Rockets players complaining they're not getting the same amount of coin as Sedin twins for doing the EXACT SAME WORK. Or local actor complaining he's not getting millions like Brad Pitt by being involved for small time projects in Kelowna. Does that look smart on any level?

And once again - nobody is forcing you to take the OP job. Just say no, and they'll be forced to up the rates because they won't find anybody. And if somebody says yes, that means there's a market for such jobs both with applicants and employers.

The fact is that pay for IT is generally lower in Kelowna than pretty much everywhere else in the Province. That means that one could move to Prince George and get better pay. Part of it is that Kelowna is a sweet spot. Our winters are mild, and our summers are pleasant, and costs are lower than the bigger population centres. Of course, there is also the self-perpetuating idea of a sunshine-tax, which doesn't really help anyone. It certainly doesn't help the businesses, since it drives away talent from the area. Businesses often complain about not being able to hire enough or the right people, or it taking too long to get a suitable applicant, often having to resort to immigrants. I've applied to work for local businesses and I almost laughed when they told me what the pay would be. In one case, their hiring consultant told me that they struggled to find qualified applicants before I came along, but that his bosses look at what others are offering and feel no reason to offer much more. He understood the problem, but had no luck convincing his bosses that they needed to offer a competitive salary. They almost certainly settled for someone really not suitable for the job and I just kept working for myself and making at least 50+% more.

The software people develop here is essentially of similar level of professionalism and similarly demanding as that written in Vancouver. The companies may be smaller, as are the projects, but the developers are expected to be similarly productive to a similar standard. Essentially they are doing the exact same job in Vancouver as in Kelowna, and in fact, some Kelowna companies have Vancouver offices with workers there, who won't move to Kelowna because of the lack of opportunities. Those workers aren't seen as better, more productive or such, just that there is no way they could get the same talent locally. That is indicative of the problem.

So, should people complain bitterly about this ad? No, but at the same time this kind of ad is very indicative of a problem which is stifling Kelowna's growth as a tech hub. The sad thing is that with a little work, Kelowna could do much better and that would be good for all of our futures. In general, tech companies are highly productive and very good for the local economy, with far fewer downsides than most other industries. Additionally, as we move to a more automated future, it is the tech companies who will thrive and continue to employ people after many other industries have become largely automated.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby adionline » Nov 24th, 2017, 3:30 pm

So, should people complain bitterly about this ad? No, but at the same time this kind of ad is very indicative of a problem which is stifling Kelowna's growth as a tech hub. The sad thing is that with a little work, Kelowna could do much better and that would be good for all of our futures.


This ad is not indicative of anything. It's one ad and ads like it exist in every city. There will always be companies low balling because they simply can't afford to take big risks. If there were bigger companies here (making profit) then you would see that reflected in the offered wages but those companies tend to set up shop in larger cities.

It's funny watching people complain about someone offering too little. Guess what, that company owes you nothing, Kelowna owes you nothing and life owes you nothing. There are far too many entitled people out there thinking they should be making 100k+ a year just because they went to school. If you think you're worth more then prove it to yourself and start a business, then eventually you can be part of the solution and hire people at higher wages. There's your bit of "little work". Except we both know 99% of people would rather complain than take responsibility for their situation.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Even Steven » Nov 24th, 2017, 3:41 pm

Verum wrote:The fact is that pay for IT is generally lower in Kelowna than pretty much everywhere else in the Province.

Ninetely percent of IT jobs are in Vancouver and outlying territories. Once you go outside of LM, there isn't much in terms of IT industry. Kelowna is probably the largest if you compare it to other places outside of LM. I don't know much about thriving IT industry in PG, may be you can point me towards some posting for software developers and SQL admins there. I'd be very surprised to see them.

You can probably find some sweet positions for network people working for larger companies there, but it's not exactly what we're talking about - if you compare them to the same positions in Kelowna they're probably paid the same or more here.

Essentially they are doing the exact same job in Vancouver as in Kelowna

See, that's the problem. Yes, they're doing the same jobs (kind of). But the landscape of the industry is completely different. The size of projects is different (in general terms). One is playing for Vancouver Canucks and making millions a year, the other one is playing for Rockets. Same job. Same skillset. Different leagues, different clubs, much more money in one as opposed to the other. Results - vast difference in pay.

My brother for example is a senior software architect. He works for one of the major banks. His skillset is very required in Vancouver, but if he was to move here instead of working on nation-wide projects for a big national company he'd be making gaming apps for a small start up (as an example only). Of course he'd be getting paid less. Is it because the small startup is greedy and worthy of laughing at? No, they're in a different league and will never be in the same league as his current employer.

Somebody also brought up the accountants and lawyers into discussion. Guess what, they're also paid less here too. Not because of the sunshine tax or some other BS. Once again, the industry landscape is different. There people work on audits for large public companies, and here they do year-end taxes for trailer parks (as an example). Will there be a difference in charge-out rates? Huge. Is there a difference in accountants salaries? Huge.

Just realities of industry landscapes.

So, should people complain bitterly about this ad? No, but at the same time this kind of ad is very indicative of a problem which is stifling Kelowna's growth as a tech hub.

Well, at least we agree that being bitter is a no-no.

And no, I don't see Kelowna becoming an IT hub anytime soon. Not because of greedy employers but because industry just isn't here, talent isn't here, etc.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Verum » Nov 24th, 2017, 11:23 pm

Even Steven wrote:
Verum wrote:The fact is that pay for IT is generally lower in Kelowna than pretty much everywhere else in the Province.

Ninetely percent of IT jobs are in Vancouver and outlying territories. Once you go outside of LM, there isn't much in terms of IT industry. Kelowna is probably the largest if you compare it to other places outside of LM. I don't know much about thriving IT industry in PG, may be you can point me towards some posting for software developers and SQL admins there. I'd be very surprised to see them.

You can probably find some sweet positions for network people working for larger companies there, but it's not exactly what we're talking about - if you compare them to the same positions in Kelowna they're probably paid the same or more here.

Essentially they are doing the exact same job in Vancouver as in Kelowna

See, that's the problem. Yes, they're doing the same jobs (kind of). But the landscape of the industry is completely different. The size of projects is different (in general terms). One is playing for Vancouver Canucks and making millions a year, the other one is playing for Rockets. Same job. Same skillset. Different leagues, different clubs, much more money in one as opposed to the other. Results - vast difference in pay.

My brother for example is a senior software architect. He works for one of the major banks. His skillset is very required in Vancouver, but if he was to move here instead of working on nation-wide projects for a big national company he'd be making gaming apps for a small start up (as an example only). Of course he'd be getting paid less. Is it because the small startup is greedy and worthy of laughing at? No, they're in a different league and will never be in the same league as his current employer.

Somebody also brought up the accountants and lawyers into discussion. Guess what, they're also paid less here too. Not because of the sunshine tax or some other BS. Once again, the industry landscape is different. There people work on audits for large public companies, and here they do year-end taxes for trailer parks (as an example). Will there be a difference in charge-out rates? Huge. Is there a difference in accountants salaries? Huge.

Just realities of industry landscapes.

So, should people complain bitterly about this ad? No, but at the same time this kind of ad is very indicative of a problem which is stifling Kelowna's growth as a tech hub.

Well, at least we agree that being bitter is a no-no.

And no, I don't see Kelowna becoming an IT hub anytime soon. Not because of greedy employers but because industry just isn't here, talent isn't here, etc.

I get the feeling that you don't know how much money some of those apps bring in. For instance, Adventure Capitalist is really pulling in some money. Ignoring apps, some of the software developed here have been on a similar scale to those developed by the likes of EA in Vancouver and in most cases, the difference in scale is largely reflected by the number of employees involved. Essentially, the developers are similarly productive in Kelowna as in Vancouver, San Francisco, London, etc. The difference is that it is hugely risky for a software company to set up in Kelowna since the talent pool is small and people like to leave. Therefore, they are attracted to California, where you can't move without bumping into a developer. The extra cost is more than made up for by the guaranteed access to a supply of talent.

There is significant IT industry here, and it is one of the more rapidly growing in Kelowna, I just believe it could grow quicker and more effectively. As someone who has worked for big and small companies on big and small projects all over the World, from a starting position up, I can say that the work being done by developers in small companies is usually far more varied and often more challenging than working for a massive company on a massive project. I found the average developer in large companies to be less capable, though there were certainly exceptions. Of course, in management, things get different as with large projects come more layers of management, and higher up managers tend to be better paid. Additionally, systems architect roles can be more complicated with larger projects. That said, I did once work on a project of monumental scale and it was headed out of an office in a city of around 65,000 people. That didn't mean that the the pay was great. I also worked on a small project where the pay was fantastic. The difference was mostly about location, though one was a sexy project and the other was in financial software. The pay in each case was more driven by the wages of IT people in there respective cities than by anything else.

Interestingly, one of my titles I have held in the past is "Senior Systems Architect", which I did in a smaller city than Kelowna, and I earned far more there than I would make in a similar role here. Again, I contend that the difference is far less about the productivity, or value of the work being done, or even scale of the project, but far more about the typical rate in that city and that is why ads like this are a problem for the long term success of Kelowna, because without significant growth in our tech industries, I suspect that Kelowna will struggle in 30 years time.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby JLives » Nov 25th, 2017, 8:53 am

adionline wrote:It's funny watching people complain about someone offering too little. Guess what, that company owes you nothing, Kelowna owes you nothing and life owes you nothing. There are far too many entitled people out there thinking they should be making 100k+ a year just because they went to school. If you think you're worth more then prove it to yourself and start a business, then eventually you can be part of the solution and hire people at higher wages. There's your bit of "little work". Except we both know 99% of people would rather complain than take responsibility for their situation.


What a *bleep* bitter attitude. Guess what a$$hole, if everyone starts a business they won't have anyone to do the actual work. Owners are NOTHING without production workers. Just self entitled pricks who think they deserve a gold medal for starting a business. Show some goddamn gratitude and respect to those doing the actual work.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 25th, 2017, 9:39 am

^^^
I'm hiding under a rock for a while......that is SCARY!! :200:
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby JLives » Nov 25th, 2017, 9:42 am

LANDM wrote:^^^
I'm hiding under a rock for a while......that is SCARY!! :200:

:D I'm sick of people crapping on the working crowd. We EARN every penny we make. And we earn it for the owners too.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 25th, 2017, 9:58 am

JLives wrote:
LANDM wrote:^^^
I'm hiding under a rock for a while......that is SCARY!! :200:

:D I'm sick of people crapping on the working crowd. We EARN every penny we make. And we earn it for the owners too.

I’m sick of *both* sides illogically ranting. The OP had the same stench of entitlement as what you are speaking of.
People earning their keep makes sense, whether owner or employee......people feeling they have the right to something and justifying it with incorrect babble-speak doesn’t make sense.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby JLives » Nov 25th, 2017, 10:06 am

No it didn't. Expecting a decent wage should be normal. You can make $18 as a labourer. This job requires actual qualifications outside of two feet and a heart beat.
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