Climate Change

[Fixer 166]

Man made or not, it's hard to deny something is going on.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... nment.html
http://www.extremeicesurvey.org/index.php/new_gallery/

What do you think?

[Queen K]

Amazing hardly describes it. We learn all this stuff in school, right, how ice is actually fluid and moves, and our valleys are the result of ice action scraping away the sides of mountains and carries debris down into moraines and etc., etc, but to actually see five year time lapse photography is to have the jaw hit the keyboard.

For anyone who is fascinated with ice and it's effects I recommend two touristy things to do in Jasper National Park.

1. Drive up Edith Cavell Mtn on their newly paved road to the top and do the incredibly easy hike to the lake.

2. Take the Athabasca Icefield tour and stand on the glacier.

We were told that at some point, the glacier melted out ancient trees where there should not have been trees, so maybe global warming and icing up really is an on-going process that we can measure in today's world because we CAN measure it with so much technology.

Thanks Fixer for the reminder, change is underway, no matter what.

[ForestfortheTrees]

I highly recommend taking a guided Ice Walk on the Athabasca Glacier rather than the snow coach. I have done both and the Ice Walk is fantastic. It is a great way to get friends and family out into an area that is normally the domain of those that have completed crevasse rescue courses and have mountaineering experience.

[ForestfortheTrees]

Thanks for posting these links Fixer. We will see where this were this thread goes

Before everyone pipes up and says climate change is all a natural process and has been going on for eons - nobody disagrees with that. What is in question is the amount of influence that humans have. An analogy I thought of the other day was canoeing on a river. The river is flowing downstream and the canoe is being taken along by the current. Lets say this is the natural process of climate change, the current of the river represents the natural processes. When the person in the canoe dips the paddle and draws a stroke, the canoe goes faster. It is a combination of the existing current and the effort of the paddle stroke.

Now imagine two people on the bank of the river. One says to the other "see how that person is making the canoe move down the river with their paddle?" The other person replies "Don't be stupid, the river is flowing downstream, of course the canoe is going to move". The first person responds with "Yeah, the river is moving, but the paddler is contributing to the speed". The second person responds with "but the river always flows downstream!"

Can you see the connection? Yes, climate is always changing from other natural processes; however, humans are contributing to this process and accelerating the change. We have our paddle in the water.

Cheers....

[Queen K]

I only wish we got there in time for the guided ice walk. As it was for us, we got there in time for the last snow coach for the day. My biggest mistake was failing to ask if they had any rooms left for that night. I would have liked to have taken more time in that area. Alas, we have vowed to drive back as far as the Athabasca Glacier and work our way back to LL slower this time.

[grammafreddy]

Thanks for posting these links Fixer. We will see where this were this thread goes

Before everyone pipes up and says climate change is all a natural process and has been going on for eons - nobody disagrees with that. What is in question is the amount of influence that humans have. An analogy I thought of the other day was canoeing on a river. The river is flowing downstream and the canoe is being taken along by the current. Lets say this is the natural process of climate change, the current of the river represents the natural processes. When the person in the canoe dips the paddle and draws a stroke, the canoe goes faster. It is a combination of the existing current and the effort of the paddle stroke.

Now imagine two people on the bank of the river. One says to the other "see how that person is making the canoe move down the river with their paddle?" The other person replies "Don't be stupid, the river is flowing downstream, of course the canoe is going to move". The first person responds with "Yeah, the river is moving, but the paddler is contributing to the speed". The second person responds with "but the river always flows downstream!"

Can you see the connection? Yes, climate is always changing from other natural processes; however, humans are contributing to this process and accelerating the change. We have our paddle in the water.

Cheers....

The canoe may be moving faster because of the paddler, but the natural flow and speed of the river does not change because of the paddler.

[barnstorm55]

Thanks for posting these links Fixer. We will see where this were this thread goes

Before everyone pipes up and says climate change is all a natural process and has been going on for eons - nobody disagrees with that. What is in question is the amount of influence that humans have. An analogy I thought of the other day was canoeing on a river. The river is flowing downstream and the canoe is being taken along by the current. Lets say this is the natural process of climate change, the current of the river represents the natural processes. When the person in the canoe dips the paddle and draws a stroke, the canoe goes faster. It is a combination of the existing current and the effort of the paddle stroke.

Now imagine two people on the bank of the river. One says to the other "see how that person is making the canoe move down the river with their paddle?" The other person replies "Don't be stupid, the river is flowing downstream, of course the canoe is going to move". The first person responds with "Yeah, the river is moving, but the paddler is contributing to the speed". The second person responds with "but the river always flows downstream!"

Can you see the connection? Yes, climate is always changing from other natural processes; however, humans are contributing to this process and accelerating the change. We have our paddle in the water.

Cheers....

Excellent analogy FFTT and well explained.

For those that didn't understand it the first time; the speed of the canoe represents the rate of climate change and the canoe is influenced by the flow of the river AND the paddler. There is no doubt that human activity on this planet is effecting the climate and weather patterns.

[steven lloyd]

And for those unable to understand grammy’s rebuttal the first time, whether the paddler paddles faster, tries paddling in reverse or simply paddles toward the shore, there will be absolutely no effect on the flow of the river’s current.

Bad analogy.

[flamingfingers]

Thanks for posting these links Fixer. We will see where this were this thread goes
... snip...

For those that didn't understand it the first time; the speed of the canoe represents the rate of climate change and the canoe is influenced by the flow of the river AND the paddler. There is no doubt that human activity on this planet is effecting the climate and weather patterns.

To a degree not infinitesimally measurable. To think that man contributes more to climate change than a bunch of volcanoes erupting here, there and everywhere, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, debris from nature (and some flotsam and jetsam from man including dbs, agreed) is patently ludicrous. Man's contribution to climate change is of about the same effect of a mouse (or thousands of mice) peeing in the ocean and trying to Affect the water levels of the oceans. It is a time of change. Those who adapt, will. Mother nature is in charge. Live with it.

[barnstorm55]

The whole point of the analogy to which we are refering is the speed of the canoe. That is what represents the rate of climate change and that is the topic of the thread. To declare that the speed of the water flow itself does not change is not only a moot point but is also most obvious.

Pretty obvious that nature will take its own course at its own rate.What some cannot grasp or admit is that human kind is affecting the rate.

[barnstorm55]

Thanks for posting these links Fixer. We will see where this were this thread goes
... snip...

For those that didn't understand it the first time; the speed of the canoe represents the rate of climate change and the canoe is influenced by the flow of the river AND the paddler. There is no doubt that human activity on this planet is effecting the climate and weather patterns.

To a degree not infinitesimally measurable. To think that man contributes more to climate change than a bunch of volcanoes erupting here, there and everywhere, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, debris from nature (and some flotsam and jetsam from man including dbs, agreed) is patently ludicrous. Man's contribution to climate change is of about the same effect of a mouse (or thousands of mice) peeing in the ocean and trying to Affect the water levels of the oceans. It is a time of change. Those who adapt, will. Mother nature is in charge. Live with it.

Where did I or anyone else say mans influence is greater than natures?

[Queen K]

Regardless of whom is paddling what, it's clear we are seeing huge changes all across our lands. Desertification, flooding, a leveling off of mountainsides in the form of landslides everywhere and most of all, a change in Winter patterns.

[flamingfingers]

Where did I or anyone else say mans influence is greater than natures?

OK then: Would you ascribe mans' contribution to climate change comparable to volcanic activity? Or the devastation caused by earthquakes and resultant environmental impact?

[flamingfingers]

Regardless of whom is paddling what, it's clear we are seeing huge changes all across our lands. Desertification, flooding, a leveling off of mountainsides in the form of landslides everywhere and most of all, a change in Winter patterns.

And YOU think this is something NEW?

[NAB]

Ya'll aint seen nothing yet as to nature's impact. Wait until the earth's magnetic poles go into reverse, which is apparently long overdue. Something I haven't seen yet either is a discussion on how the magnetic field of the earth protects us from being wiped out, co2 or no co2.

Nab