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The feminist movement is getting out of control.

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.

The feminist movement is getting out of control.

Postby StraitTalk » Sep 5th, 2014, 7:43 pm

I don't mean to offend anyone, and I ask only that you read this post entirely before making any judgements. I'm not trying to discredit anyone.

Please keep it civil and if you haven't anything productive to bring to the conversation, just don't.

This story is what prompted me to start the discussion: http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... htm#122314

I'll be using this story as an example. Now, by definition, a feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. That's a very simple and short statement when the issue at hand is not simple at all. We still live in a world where less women are employed in higher-paying jobs proportionally, and, women still seem to be paid less than men. In 2010 the median income of FTYR workers was $42,800 for men, compared to $34,700 for women. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.81, slightly higher than the 2008 ratio. (http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2011.pdf)

So clearly, there is ground to cover here. And although it could be a long time before we are at a 1:1 ratio, you could say things have improved drastically over the past 100, and even 50 years. So what am I getting at? I'm prefacing this all with this because I want to make it very clear I am not denying there are equality issues at hand. It is plainly obvious that there are, and I've only used wages as an example of that, it is far more complex than that.

Now, taking this recent issue with the barbershop into account, here you have a business that has chosen to cater to men specifically - there are plenty of businesses that do this. Going further though, they have made the decision that they only want to accept male customers. Now, this is a slippery slope, and I don't want to say I have all the answers on whether this is "fair" or "equal" or not, because that is for the courts to decide, not me, and not you either. However, I do wonder, where is the damage being done here?

Consider this. I am a male in my mid 20's. I (until recently) have been going to the same hairdresser for three years because I liked having my hair cut by the same person. This establishment however was predominantly used by women, and almost every single time I went in there I was awkwardly stared at like I'd just walked into the women's washroom or something. There was one occasion where someone asked "what are you doing here?". It never bothered me much, because I will willing to accept that a lot of girls went in there to chat with their hairdressers and the conversations were obviously awkward with a guy around. That is fair, and I legitimately felt a little guilty raining on that parade, but nobody ever made an issue of it and neither did I. This place did have a lot of male customers though, so it's certainly not like it was a women's hair salon by definition, if that even is a thing in the same sense of the aforementioned salon in this news story.

Now, I can honestly tell you that if this was a women's salon and was advertised as such, I wouldn't go there, and it wouldn't be a problem. As I mentioned before, going to the hairdresser can be a very social experience for people and it's part of what makes a great hairdresser, really. I don't think that anyone should have to feel guilty about wanting to go hang out with the girls while they get their hair done, especially since I've seen men and women in these places for hours getting extravagant hair-do's done up and you've got to pass the time somehow. I don't think men should have to feel guilty about wanting to do this either. Often I hear the excuse that it's usually female hairdressers in these places anyway. So what? Your moral authority must be pretty low if you feel just because men or women like to be around the opposite sex particularly, in any setting, is something to be ashamed of.

When I had this discussion with someone today, who calls them self a feminist, they pointed out that establishments like these (and there is more that one in town) rely on provocative women to attract men and keep them coming back. Interesting, and probably partially true. But, I still don't see an issue here, and this is where I start to have an issue with some aspects of the feminist movement.

This is a direct quote by an online video-blogger who was disgusted by the following article: http://www.elle.com/news/culture/spider ... comic-book

"Quit associating sexuality with negativity. There's nothing wrong with sex, being sexual or even sexualizing objects. Just because a person is sexualized doesn't mean that he or she loses worth or value as a human being. If you think they do, then you're warped and need to have a healthier view of sex and quit demonizing what is probably the most human aspect of humanity."


This is a pretty infuriating story in particular, because the author, Megan Friedman, for the sake of making an argument, tells some outright lies throughout her article. Not only that, but she herself says some of the most sexist things I think I have read in quite a long time. You need only read the title of the article itself.

So my question to you is, who is this hurting? If Curves is an established female-only fitness centre that to this day hasn't had any issues or questions of equality, then why can't a men-only hair salon? Would a men-only fitness centre be treated with the same regard?

Is there a double standard here?
Last edited by StraitTalk on Dec 30th, 2016, 12:23 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby Glacier » Sep 5th, 2014, 8:06 pm

Very good and thoughtful post. The problem I see is that you are not allowed to have a boy's only club like Boy Scouts, but you are allowed to have a girl's only club like Girl Guides.

As for pay equity, the reason men and women are paid differently is because women make smarter choices (they consider other things besides just money).



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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby normaM » Sep 6th, 2014, 5:18 am

I'm sorry you lost me at the stare. No idea where you go, every place I've been there were Men and no one raised a brow.
I prefer some things to be Men/Women only - washrooms for example.
BTW, when my Mother was young taverns had separate entrances. You can see old schools that had as well.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby Lady tehMa » Sep 6th, 2014, 10:27 am

I believe we should be allowed to have preferences. I know many women who feel "safer" at Curves because it is a women's only gym. So many with body issues that don't want men to see them in workout gear.

As for a men's only barber shop; why shouldn't they be allowed a place of their own? It isn't like there is a shortage of stylists. They are simply maintaining a long standing tradition, and should be allowed to do so. My husband and son see my stylist - who is a woman. In a salon. She gives them great haircuts.

We have so many options available, why do some look for the ones that are "off limits" and try to make a point?

Do you remember the lesbian who insisted a muslim barber had to give her a haircut? http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/22/rights-complaint-against-muslim-barber-who-refused-to-give-woman-haircut-quietly-resolved/ It was in the news for a while, and now it has been "quietly resolved" with "confidentiality agreements".
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby JLives » Sep 6th, 2014, 10:40 am

I would be interested to know the details in that case Lady tehMa posted. It doesn't say it was a men's only place, just that it was a barber shop. The female in the picture looks to have exactly the type of haircut they regularly service. The barber was in the wrong here in my opinion.

I'm kind of in the middle on the 1 gender only places. I see why some people would want it that way such as the women only gyms. I also am not comfortable with isolating people from public places such as men only golf courses. I don't think it's cool to make a big deal about not being allowed to go to men's only barber either as there are really tons of other options, that's false outrage and somebody who is just trying to get media exposure. It is good it has brought up this debate though. I guess for me it is a gray area and would be on a case by case basis.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby driveangry » Sep 6th, 2014, 10:55 am

jennylives wrote:I would be interested to know the details in that case Lady tehMa posted. It doesn't say it was a men's only place, just that it was a barber shop. The female in the picture looks to have exactly the type of haircut they regularly service. The barber was in the wrong here in my opinion.



Without going into the details, I would have to disagree with you on this one. This appears to me to be set up whether she was looking for her 15 minutes of fame or just didn't have anything constructive to do.

Interesting that she chose a Barber shop, most Barber shops are for men, but she choose one that has a Muslim for a barber. I'm not familiar with Muslim religion or culture but I believe there might be some reason there to turn her away. And since she was quick to complain, how do we know that she wouldn't turn a simple hair cut to a sexual charge.

What ever happened to the rights of the business owner to refuse to do business with whom ever they choose.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby JLives » Sep 6th, 2014, 11:01 am

She seems to identify more masculine than feminine if you look at her picture. I'm not surprised she would prefer a barber. Or what about a transgender person?
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby normaM » Sep 6th, 2014, 11:21 am

She most likely KNEW he couldn't cut her hair.. I'm sure she had used other places before. I agree
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Jenny - how do you feel about gender neutral washrooms?
actually I wish there were just NORMA ONLY bathrooms.. some people are pigs in the stalls
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby driveangry » Sep 6th, 2014, 11:49 am

jennylives wrote:She seems to identify more masculine than feminine if you look at her picture. I'm not surprised she would prefer a barber. Or what about a transgender person?



I go to a "Barber shop", my barber is a woman, shop is decorated towards masculine, not sure if she cuts women's hair, I'm sure she does/would. I prefer women as barbers, doctors, dentist, lawyers. I get the impression they are better at their profession or maybe it's a trust issue..
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby Atomoa » Sep 6th, 2014, 12:28 pm

Glacier wrote:As for pay equity, the reason men and women are paid differently is because women make smarter choices (they consider other things besides just money).


I guess nobody is taking into consideration that statistically and traditionally and by all western (and other societies) social norms that a man is considered to be the breadwinner in a family? Marital and child custody laws do not reflect this?

A woman makes a job choice not on "how much does it pay" but "whether it provides a balanced life"?

Does this include single moms with no child support coming in? Single women with no children?

When hubby is bringing home the oilsands cheques and being killed 93% of the time on the job, Mom has more room and free will to take a job that suits her lifestyle, even if the pay is a little less. Are there multiple online dating sites for Sugar Mommas, as well as Sugar Daddies? How many boutique stores and home based jewelry businesses in Kelowna that don't even have to turn a profit?

Interesting survey I saw in the local paper too. "Should men be given maternity leave as well as women?". 70% of people responded said no (in Kelowna). Women seem have a legit "choice" whether to become full time moms / part time workers. Men - get back to work and start paying. Their role in parenting is more providing than it is parenting, as per public perceptions.

But anyways....

My personal take on this. I read another news peice on this issue and from what I gathered a "Butch" lesbian went into this "men's only" haircut business and asked for a traditional men's haircut. Parted and short on the sides.

Now would that have made men in the "mens only" in the shop uncomfortable? I don't know. Personally Im sure the woman is more than "one of the guys" than "one of the girls" anyways - wouldn't matter to me. As a male however I'm going to slightly and poorly crossdress and walk into a local high end women's salon and see what kind of reactions I get when I ask for a wax job and then form my opinion of double standards from there ;)
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby StraitTalk » Sep 6th, 2014, 1:11 pm

Atomoa you hit a couple interesting points there, especially the one about maternity leave. A lot of more reputable employers make the choice to allow their male employees to go on maternity leave as well as the female ones, but am I correct in saying that it isn't legally required?

I feel like if there is any merit to someone's quest for equality, then you mustn't ignore one sex entirely or even partially no matter how far "ahead" either sex is. It shouldn't be a "feminist" movement. It should be an "equality" movement.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby JLives » Sep 6th, 2014, 1:28 pm

StraitTalk wrote:Atomoa you hit a couple interesting points there, especially the one about maternity leave. A lot of more reputable employers make the choice to allow their male employees to go on maternity leave as well as the female ones, but am I correct in saying that it isn't legally required?


The 50 weeks are broken up into 15 weeks of maternity leave which only the mother can claim and 35 weeks of parental leave which either or both can claim. The 35 weeks can either be split or taken by one parent but the combined weeks cannot exceed 35.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby JLives » Sep 6th, 2014, 1:29 pm

normaM wrote:She most likely KNEW he couldn't cut her hair.. I'm sure she had used other places before. I agree
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Jenny - how do you feel about gender neutral washrooms?
actually I wish there were just NORMA ONLY bathrooms.. some people are pigs in the stalls


I have no issue with gender neutral washrooms.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby JLives » Sep 6th, 2014, 1:43 pm

Atomoa wrote:When hubby is bringing home the oilsands cheques and being killed 93% of the time on the job, Mom has more room and free will to take a job that suits her lifestyle, even if the pay is a little less. Are there multiple online dating sites for Sugar Mommas, as well as Sugar Daddies? How many boutique stores and home based jewelry businesses in Kelowna that don't even have to turn a profit?


I wonder how many women would be taking those jobs if they were paid the same as men or likely to be hired in the first place? The majority of the women I know who are working up there are in cooking, serving and cleaning positions. One does site testing of some kind. I only know one woman who went from stripping to working directly on the patch to becoming a nurse.

Really, it's just different for every family. If they choose for mom to stay home while Dad works than good for them. I am unsuitable as a stay at home parent because I need to work for mental stimulation and losing a Dad in a car accident at a young age taught me to always be self sufficient. Good for them for taking on at home work to bring in some cash, I see no reason to knock it aside from it being annoying being solicited all the time.

Yes, there are websites for sugar mommies. I find them repugnant myself (both kinds) but to each their own.

Atomoa wrote:Interesting survey I saw in the local paper too. "Should men be given maternity leave as well as women?". 70% of people responded said no (in Kelowna). Women seem have a legit "choice" whether to become full time moms / part time workers. Men - get back to work and start paying. Their role in parenting is more providing than it is parenting, as per public perceptions.


Of course men shouldn't get "maternity leave" which is currently 15 weeks. It is intended to allow the woman to recuperate from child birth whether naturally or via C-section. It has a medical purpose. Fathers are allowed to take 35 weeks of paid parental leave after that which is great.
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Re: The Feminist Movement is getting out of control.

Postby unclemarty » Sep 7th, 2014, 2:31 pm

Straight Talk,

Just for fun; get your camera, hit the streets, and ask some questions around town like in this Israeli video:

tic...toc...tic...toc...

"Jerusalem is a port city on the shore of eternity." - Yehuda Amichai

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