The feminist movement is getting out of control.

[TreeGuy]

So I have had this conversation with Mrs. Tree and she gets it.

Mrs. Tree works in a predominantly female office and the manager is female.

They do a great job at what they do, it is a stressful job. They don’t really get paid enough for what they do and it’s not their fault nor is it upper managements fault.

The woman aren’t focused on the business. They are focused on their kids recitals. They are focused on picking their kids up early from school because of sniffles.

They show up late, they take longer lunches getting their hair done, they spend a whole lot of time in groups out back getting some fresh air (this pisses Mrs Tree off cause she doesn’t smoke) and some leave early cause hey I worked a 1/2 hour extra twice last month.

And once a month an employee doesn’t show up cause they are feeling crampy.

Men, the real men I know, don’t do this. We get up every morning and drag our sorry azzes to work, put in a full shift, eating on the run cuz their is *bleep* to get done and we work late cuz their is even more *bleep* to get done. We do this our whole career and then we die sooner than the women.

Good lord, could you drag your knuckles harder?

Your comment doesn’t offend me. I did get a good chuckle from it. I even “liked” it.

Instead of just trying to put me down why not contribute to the thread and talk about why you oppose my view. Nothing I stated is solely my opinion but my observation and what my wife tells me each day. The part about real men, well that is how men contribute to society and provide for their families. I realize it is probably old school thinking, if I said that in the Google HQ there would be a bunch of boys running to their safe place.

[Bsuds]

Good lord, could you drag your knuckles harder?

Not sure why you would think that when much of the info is coming from his Wife?

I might not agree with it 100% but there is a lot of truth in there too.

[Gilchy]

Fair enough, it was a quip, rather than full reply. My issue is with the concept of "real men", as the platonic ideal of work ethic and achievement. I've worked at numerous places, and worked with driven men and women, and lazy men and women. To reduce one set of traits to one gender, and imply it is therefor lessor based on imagined on anecdotal evidence, is a totally self-fulfilling prophecy which serves to reinforcing pre-existing ideas of inherent male superiority and female inferiority.

[TreeGuy]

Fair enough, it was a quip, rather than full reply. My issue is with the concept of "real men", as the platonic ideal of work ethic and achievement. I've worked at numerous places, and worked with driven men and women, and lazy men and women. To reduce one set of traits to one gender, and imply it is therefor lessor based on imagined on anecdotal evidence, is a totally self-fulfilling prophecy which serves to reinforcing pre-existing ideas of inherent male superiority and female inferiority.

I posted the videos below because JP is far more eloquent than I. But to quote him, "Men and Women are not the same"

I have a neighbour, 10 years older than me (I wonder if his friend Ray is reading this) and this guy works HARD. 6 or 7 days a week, long days with harsh working conditions. Why does he do it?

I have done the same. 12 hour days of solid tree climbing. I'd each lunch while driving to the next job site. I ran my own business for the last 4+ years working countless hours. Why would I do it?

Now there are women that do the exact same thing but much fewer than men. And that is great for them.

In both cases it is not about climbing a corporate ladder like JP references in his video but I think we believe we are getting ahead in some way.

Is it about "male superiority" as you mention?

I don't think so. Firstly I think it is about how men's identity comes from their work.

What's the first question a man asks another when they meet for the first time? "What do you do?"

If a woman asks my wife what she does she is likely to say, "I sing." Her work is secondary. It is just a means to an end. And that is okay, there is nothing wrong with that. But she will likely never be a manager and she has stated she doesn't want to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Her primary role for the last 5 year has been to look after me as I battled Lyme disease and most recently a broken neck. And it is her role as a nurturer, which is a role she is biologically programmed to fill, that allowed me to work like a dog running my business right up until the point I hit the ground.

Who's role is in the above scenario is more important?
.
.
.
.
.
NEITHER. Surprised by my answer? It is the symbiotic relationship between us that allows both of us to survive. We are fulfilling roles that each of us are designed to fill.

[Ka-El]

Who's role is in the above scenario is more important?

NEITHER. Surprised by my answer? It is the symbiotic relationship between us that allows both of us to survive. We are fulfilling roles that each of us are designed to fill.

Fair enough. My wife retired from her "career" with the bank years ago and now sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Like you, my wife now focuses on supporting me (cooking, laundry, etc.) so I can continue putting in the hours with my career. If you are referring specifically to you and your wife are fulfilling roles that each of us are designed to fill, I would agree with the caveat "this is what works for us". I would not presume to suggest that anyone, man or woman, necessarily has any pre-determined gender role to fill (not sure if that is what you were saying), and I certainly believe for those women who do want to pursue careers, their pay should be reflective of their ability and skills and not be impacted by their gender.

[Gilchy]

In both cases it is not about climbing a corporate ladder like JP references in his video but I think we believe we are getting ahead in some way.

Is it about "male superiority" as you mention?

I don't think so. Firstly I think it is about how men's identity comes from their work.

Thank you for the reply, and I understand better where you are coming from now. I'm of the same mind as Ka-El above me, where every person and family has to find the situation most suitable for them.

I go back to my issue being the stereotypical "Real Man" identity. Maybe I spend too much time on Twitter, but all the right, MRA types have such a toxic and extreme view of masculinity, and it's supposed superiority that I wince when I see superficially similar arguments. Let's face it, the group that swings around words like "*bleep*" and "beta" as insults are enforcing an hierarchal society based in patriarchy that is ultimately damaging to everyone, including themselves.

[normaM]

since we aren't machines not many things were we " designed" to fill.
How can all the women where TG wife works get away with what they pull? More importantly how do they manage to score a hair appt so close to work? :/
Only thing in my Nature to do is spend money I don't have.
* hears TG singing " Natural Woman" *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0toPcplCo4o

[TreeGuy]

In both cases it is not about climbing a corporate ladder like JP references in his video but I think we believe we are getting ahead in some way.

Is it about "male superiority" as you mention?

I don't think so. Firstly I think it is about how men's identity comes from their work.

Thank you for the reply, and I understand better where you are coming from now. I'm of the same mind as Ka-El above me, where every person and family has to find the situation most suitable for them.

I go back to my issue being the stereotypical "Real Man" identity. Maybe I spend too much time on Twitter, but all the right, MRA types have such a toxic and extreme view of masculinity, and it's supposed superiority that I wince when I see superficially similar arguments. Let's face it, the group that swings around words like "*bleep*" and "beta" as insults are enforcing an hierarchal society based in patriarchy that is ultimately damaging to everyone, including themselves.

And the leftist view is equally harmful. They want us to all be the same.

At your job, does everyone have a role to play? Most likely you answered yes. Does everyone know there roles? Likely yes again. Now I am sure some of those roles cross over but for the most part there are defined roles. Yes?

What would happen if there were no assigned roles? Some might fall into those roles naturally. Others might resist that.

Why are we seeing marriages fall a part at such a high rate?

I believe, and this is purely my observation, I have no fun video to back this up, although I could probably find one.

Okay, let me try that again, I believe that people in their marriages don't know what role they play and/or are resisting the ones that their bent might naturally place them in.

If two people can function absolutely and completely independently of one another then what reason do they have to stay together?

Is love enough? Is sex enough?

Don't get me wrong, Mrs. Tree and I could both function in the world independently from each, no question, that's what we were doing before we met each other. But it is the fact that we function better together than a part that is the glue.

The leftist view wants us to see the weakness in that and not the strength.

Edited to Add: Each of us has faced a moment in time when the other persons life was in peril. Nothing makes you more aware of how you feel about another person than that.

[Silverstarqueen]

So I have had this conversation with Mrs. Tree and she gets it.

Mrs. Tree works in a predominantly female office and the manager is female.

They do a great job at what they do, it is a stressful job. They don’t really get paid enough for what they do and it’s not their fault nor is it upper managements fault.

The woman aren’t focused on the business. They are focused on their kids recitals. They are focused on picking their kids up early from school because of sniffles.

They show up late, they take longer lunches getting their hair done, they spend a whole lot of time in groups out back getting some fresh air (this pisses Mrs Tree off cause she doesn’t smoke) and some leave early cause hey I worked a 1/2 hour extra twice last month.

And once a month an employee doesn’t show up cause they are feeling crampy.

Men, the real men I know, don’t do this. We get up every morning and drag our sorry azzes to work, put in a full shift, eating on the run cuz their is *bleep* to get done and we work late cuz their is even more *bleep* to get done. We do this our whole career and then we die sooner than the women.

So you have an example of a business where the manager allows employees family time, or flexible hours. Maybe the manager is slack, or maybe she realizes what it takes to retain good employees.(We won't know)

I can give you an example of where I worked, mainly females. Neither I nor anyone else took unnecessary sick time, or time off work for kids recitals. I took two sick days in ten years. Often worked thru lunch, sometimes because I chose to, sometimes because it was required.Never took time off for my kids, or to get my hair done (which would have seemed ridiculous). I got my toddlers up in the morning, took them to daycare, worked my shift, and picked the kids up after work. I put them to bed. I did the housework.(Hubby did cook dinner bless his heart). He worked hard but he did not work full time and his job was less stressful than mine. The few men on our staff, I have to tell you, half of them were lazy, and half were hard working (they were the admins). When we had a female admin, there was no change in time off for employees.
So my experience is quite different than yours. Neither of us can say from just our experience if that is typical for most female workers or most male workers.

[liisgo]

A survey from the Office for National Statistics found that women are 42% more likely to take sick days than men.


http://www.hrinasia.com/general/is-it-t ... -than-men/
https://www.hrzone.com/lead/culture/why ... o-about-it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... n-men.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4241746&page=1

[the truth]

i have had a lot of different jobs in my life time,i could of told you that.. so much for the man flu, more like the women flu

[Silverstarqueen]

A survey from the Office for National Statistics found that women are 42% more likely to take sick days than men.


http://www.hrinasia.com/general/is-it-t ... -than-men/
https://www.hrzone.com/lead/culture/why ... o-about-it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... n-men.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4241746&page=1

http://www.hrinasia.com/general/is-it-t ... -than-men/

And did you look at the reasons why? Considering that 100% of pregnancies are carried by women, and most of the care of sick kids falls to women, is it any surprise that they are off work more often than men?

[dirtybiker]

Does a Person fresh out of School, Paper in hand, deserve the same wage
as another person with 35 years exp. and 15 yrs. with said Company ?

Same job title on paper.(it is a very broad brush)

Even after 4 yrs. wage parody ?

Now add in the Newer hire takes several (3-5) personal days a month. (0 kids)

The Veteran, next to never, 1, 2 tops a year. (I kid)

Wage parody ?

Who has the most issues in adverse situations ?
Who ends up having to help who the most ?

Wage parody ?

New hire sure seems to think so !

Same title on paper after all..

[Verum]

Does a Person fresh out of School, Paper in hand, deserve the same wage
as another person with 35 years exp. and 15 yrs. with said Company ?Depends. 35 years of experience is worthless if they didn't learn anything in it.

Same job title on paper.(it is a very broad brush)

Even after 4 yrs. wage parody ?

Now add in the Newer hire takes several (3-5) personal days a month. (0 kids)

The Veteran, next to never, 1, 2 tops a year. (I kid)

Wage parody ?

Who has the most issues in adverse situations ?
Who ends up having to help who the most ?

Wage parody ?

New hire sure seems to think so !

Same title on paper after all..

Same job title does not mean same job, does not mean same productivity, does not mean same level of risk management, etc. An employer takes a lot into account when trying to determine wages, and it's rarely simple. The problem is if managers are determining that women should be paid less for the same work (not just same title, but same productivity, etc.) then we have an issue and there is adequate evidence that it is happening to at least some degree. The problem is that neither those who completely deny that there is a level of sexism causing a disparity of wage, nor those who think that the difference in wage is entirely accounted for by sexism are right. It's just not that simple. Sexism, racism, etc. all exist and are a real problem today, but not every incident where a woman is treated worse than a man is due to sexism and not every incident where a Black person is injured by a White person is racism, but that doesn't mean that many of these incidents aren't at least in some part due to racism.

[dirtybiker]

So,
open the books to see who holds the highest profit margins for the
Company.
Taking all facets into account.
Revenues in, Expenses out.

Throw some circumstance and situational resolve management performance
into the mix.
Any other pertinent odds and sods and somewhere in there a wage
should be discovered for each individual.
Then Safety and years of service bonuses just for fun.

Sounds easy...
Skip the genders and races and
Sally is yer Aunt !

I was gonna say, "Bob's yer Uncle"

But it's a Feminist Thread.