To spank or not to spank, that is the question

[rustled]

In respecting these parents, I mean no disrespect to the experts and their degrees, but reality so seldom matches theory when one is raising children... I just think we'd do well to remember that unless we've walked a mile in those parents' (or experts'!) shoes, we ought not judge.

Nor should we judge ourselves and how we have raised our children solely on the opinions of other parents or experts, none of whom have ever walked a mile with us.

I always found it amusing, back when I was raising my children, how often advice came from those who had no children, let alone a large brood.

My feeling is that there are way too many with degrees, who when it comes down to it, have tons of book learning, but very little, if any, practical experience, which if they did have they'd quite often change their tone in a hurry.

And even those with experience didn't have my experience. Or my mother's! I really wonder how those who sit in judgement here would fare raising a bunch of kids in the environments we were raised in, situations which couldn't possibly be child-proofed, where she couldn't be everywhere at once, guarding and patiently explaining to keep us all safe. (We'd have gone hungry if she'd opted to do that instead of what she had to do.) In those circumstances, where it was absolutely essential to make sure little children understood when Mom says no, she means no, and she means it now, I wonder if the never-spank folk would have managed to stick to their convictions about spanking?

I think it's fortunate we live in a time and place where it's easier to keep children from harm while they learn to reason, but I'm not sure, even as privileged as we are today, anyone has the right to judge parents who still believe there's sometimes a time and a place for spanking.

[mwalsh]

I always found it amusing, back when I was raising my children, how often advice came from those who had no children, let alone a large brood.

My feeling is that there are way too many with degrees, who when it comes down to it, have tons of book learning, but very little, if any, practical experience, which if they did have they'd quite often change their tone in a hurry.

I am a parent to three children, one of whom has disabilities. I have relevant and practical experience.

I have a university degree, and I have studied development, childhood development, and psychology. I have an in depth understanding of how corporal punishment can affect a child's development. I have an understanding of how studies are conducted and how to understand their statistical value.

I was a child who was subjected to corporal punishment. I know how it feels.

I have never nor would I ever subject my own children to any form of corporal punishment.

[Xia33]

and that is your choice. As has been said, each person has their experiences and one needs to respect that. I, too, had spankings(wouldn't call it "corporal punishment") but have no ill effects from it, because I had the total love and support from my parents at the same time.....I don't think they enjoyed it and it didn't happen often because it was effective.

^It isn't so much about "being up in arms about it"....it is that those in power positions with differing ideas they put into place often find over time that it really wasn't that good of an idea after all. You say "if I were a parent".....so you are not a parent? If you are not, then by all means voice your opinion.....and please voice it once again when you are a parent. Don't get me wrong.....I respect how anyone chooses to raise their child providing they do no harm....that is their choice....as it is for everyone.
^^ this was an answer to a response that obviously didn't make it to the thread. lol

[Xia33]

^^^edit to add that although I may respect their decision on their way of parenting, I just might choose not to have to be around their kids.

[Puddlejumper40]

I teach my child the basics because he has brain damage on top of his Autism Spectrum Disorder. The brain damage effects a lot of areas. It makes it difficult to grasp complex situations, think three or four steps ahead without direct supervision. He constantly forget things, even things as trivial as attending the Rockets hockey game two days prior... I have been told that my child is a testament to our good parenting. That came from someone I came to respect. It meant a lot to hear that.... If you want to talk about how my son has been raised, come over to the speakeasy. You have no idea what it has taken to get him to this point.

I have no post secondary education. My experiences are real life. I have meet more rude, disrespectful people in my life, than I care to mention. I don't respect anyone in politics because I feel they are for the most part, liars and thieves. I don't respect, pedophiles, wife abusers, criminal organizations and the list goes on. I have found, many two faced people in this world. Should I respect them? I watched my son receive twenty five incident reports in the public school system over a two year period. Very few in the private system. I have no respect for how the school system treated my child. It was degrading, disgusting and at times completely unsafe. The way some so called "professional" teachers treated him was "disrespectful". Should I try and teach a child who only sees things in black and white, the grey areas? If someone is being mean and bullying him, he is suppose to walk away. We recommend staying away from little bullies like this. It's very apparent those children have had crappy parents raising them!!! Or should I teach him to "respect" that bully, he may just be having a bad day?

Just because I don't agree with another viewpoint, doesn't mean I don't "respect" their opinion. You know, I have read a few times on this forum somebody state, well, opinions are like as*ho'les, everyone has one. Going from memory here but, I don't recall any of you jumping all over those comments in the past! Why not? Even those apparent "as*holes". deserve respect?

I don't see much "respect" going on in threads that involve politics, religion. Why is that? For some, this topic is as "hot" as those topics. You do not know what's going on inside a child's head at two or three. To spank them is irresponsible. And can cause more harm than good. They may have problems you are not aware. I know, people's "real life" experience told them, the child has zero problems, spank away!

[rustled]

Seems to me many posters here have shown tolerance for your position, and respected your right to make the choices you've made. But it seems to me you're unable to show much, if any, tolerance for theirs.

You say "I don't respect anyone in politics because I feel they are for the most part, liars and thieves." Regardless of one's actual intentions, motivations, or actions, if one is in politics you have already pre-judged them and decided they are unworthy of respect. I find this intolerance and prejudice narrow-minded and sad.

This is the same intolerance I sense in your posts for anyone who feels there may be a time and a place for spanking. You've pre-judged them as parents and decided they are unworthy of respect.

When you're comfortable with pre-judging people based on narrow sets of criteria, how, then, do you approach people in the world? You've not taken a single step with them on their journey.

I have a family member who shares most of your son's attributes. Times were different, and this family member was undiagnosed until the age of about 16, had a great deal of difficulty navigating the school system, and yes: was indeed spanked as a child. I would hate to think of how you would treat this person's parents. This person is, today, given the underlying conditions, an extraordinarily well-functioning and highly contributing member of society, pleasant and trustworthy, well-liked by all, doing much more with what's been given than many others I know.

Those parents did what they believed was right in raising all of their kids to be just that. And yet, to read your posts here, you would be quite comfortable sitting firmly in judgment on them.

I hope I am getting that wrong, but I'm afraid that is how you're coming across (to me, at any rate): Intolerant, narrow-minded, prejudiced. Small surprise, then, you're finding people approach this issue no differently from religion and politics!

[Xia33]

Puddlejumper40: I understand where you are coming from with having a somewhat handicapped child....and I applaud you for your love and protection of him. I also apologize for the experience you and he have had at the hands of society. On the other hand, as difficult as this has been on you, there seems to be a lot of anger carried only to be passed on in an attitude that can or cannot be justified. The issue I have is that not ALL people would or do feel the need to be ignorant or react however you have seen and/or experienced. Generalizations are dangerous, and you have made a few Imo. You are anti spanking...I get that. Imo respect is deserved until proven it is not....in ALL cases. No one knows the reasoning behind ones opinions or attitudes, nor what they have experienced in life to make it so.

[zookeeper]

I have no post secondary education. My experiences are real life. I have meet more rude, disrespectful people in my life, than I care to mention. I don't respect anyone in politics because I feel they are for the most part, liars and thieves.

The most ironic part of this statement is that you are asking the very body that you disrespect to make a law to enforce on everyone, a law that by your admission would not even affect you because it is something that you have never done. Yet you choose to lay blame, and in my opinion lay judgement to invoke pity. That in my eyes is not any more mature than a child laying on the floor having a tantrum.

Everyone has their own life experiences, there won't ever be a mold that fits everyone. I have a child that by all definitions is "normal", with the exception that this child chose to shoot for something outside of the box. You don't think that kid ever got "you can't do that"? "That is stupid, you will never succeed doing that"? Sort of like wanting to be a rock star, some succeed, some don't. You don't think I ever had my parenting brought in to question for allowing and encouraging growth outside of what some people thought was the norm?

I spent years volunteering with families like yours, advocating for children in the school system when their parents were at a loss as to how to move on, looking for doors to open when all these families saw were dead ends. Did any one of these families ever see the hurt in my eyes, or my kids, when they judged us on "how lucky we must be" not to have any problems?

The difference I believe is in that we didn't dwell on the negative (or the hurt), we chose to continue on a path that we believed was right for us (as a family and each as individuals), and still we give a helping hand to anyone who may ask. We don't ask for anything in return, and (hopefully) we don't judge others who have less, nor those who have more. We certainly don't expect the whole world to conform to our beliefs (and hopes and dreams and goals), just as we don't particularly want the world to want us to conform to it's.

[fvkasm2x]

I am a parent to three children, one of whom has disabilities. I have relevant and practical experience.

I have a university degree, and I have studied development, childhood development, and psychology. I have an in depth understanding of how corporal punishment can affect a child's development. I have an understanding of how studies are conducted and how to understand their statistical value.

I was a child who was subjected to corporal punishment. I know how it feels.

I have never nor would I ever subject my own children to any form of corporal punishment.

Great story. I have multiple degrees, a great paying government job, a happy family, etc...

I was also spanked, hit with a spoon/belt/broom whatever tool was around whenever I misbehaved.

I think spanking is alright and have no issues with my parents.

Everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions.

[mwalsh]

Great story. I have multiple degrees, a great paying government job, a happy family, etc...

I was also spanked, hit with a spoon/belt/broom whatever tool was around whenever I misbehaved.

I think spanking is alright and have no issues with my parents.

Everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions.

So we are clear, hitting with a spoon/belt/broom/ whatever tool is around, is child abuse.

No one should be allowed to make their own decisions regarding child abuse.

[LoneWolf_53]

So we are clear, hitting with a spoon/belt/broom/ whatever tool is around, is child abuse.

No one should be allowed to make their own decisions regarding child abuse.

Yes and just so we are crystal clear, back at that time it was NOT child abuse, and believe me the strap used in public schools hurt far more than a wooden spoon or broom.

Now that political correctness has overrun rashional thought, pretty much everything that doesn't blow sunshine up the little gaffers tushies is viewed as abuse.

I'm just waiting for a study that clues experts in to the fact that a parent's job is to prepare their offspring for the real world, not some fairy tale land where everything is milk and honey, no one ever loses a contest, and no one ever fails a test.

[OREZ]

So we are clear, hitting with a spoon/belt/broom/ whatever tool is around, is child abuse.

No one should be allowed to make their own decisions regarding child abuse.

Meaning what? Everyone's interpretation of what constitutes child abuse has to fall into line with yours or they're bad people?

[WhenWhatWho]

Maybe we should spank/abuse/hit the parents of the really unrully brats instead.

[mwalsh]

Yes and just so we are crystal clear, back at that time it was NOT child abuse, and believe me the strap used in public schools hurt far more than a wooden spoon or broom.

Now that political correctness has overrun rashional thought, pretty much everything that doesn't blow sunshine up the little gaffers tushies is viewed as abuse.

I'm just waiting for a study that clues experts in to the fact that a parent's job is to prepare their offspring for the real world, not some fairy tale land where everything is milk and honey, no one ever loses a contest, and no one ever fails a test.

As times change and we develope as a society, our beliefs and our laws change to suit. Just because it was practiced back at that time doesn't negate that fact it was abuse, people just were unaware of it. Throughout history there are endless examples of acts committed by people that were considered normal or acceptable for that time, then later deemed wrong, but that doesn't justify it.

Meaning what? Everyone's interpretation of what constitutes child abuse has to fall into line with yours or they're bad people?

It is not my interpretation of what constitutes child abuse, it is Canada's law, hence why no one should be able to make their own decisions regarding it.

My point of the argument, people who support or believe in corporal punishment (aka spanking) as a form of discipline should not argue their own upbringing of what is clearly defined today by our country and laws as child abuse in attempts to support their views as there is a big difference between corporal punishment and child abuse.

[OREZ]

For the record: I believe that the only reason some of us who were brought up with spanking as part of discipline and suffered no ill effects mentioned our experience was as a counter point to others who seemed to be saying that they have dealt with long term issues because of their experiences with corporal punishment where they felt that it crossed the line into abuse. I don't think the intention was to say that, since it was fine for us that everyone should go along with it and raise their kids that way. Every kid and every family is different to a considerable extent.

Again, studies are studies and life experience is life experience and the two don't always jive. I'm not going to throw out my experience because someone posts a study that comes to a different conclusion. I don't live my life by studies which change back and forth through time on this and a whole myriad of other topics.

(Edited for clarity....hopefully)