Gender and culture

[logicalview]

Instead of just asking (which you can do politely I will add) why I think it is okay for women to choose to wear a Hijab you decide to call me a hypocrite, politically correct, and questioning how I live with myself. All which you mean as insults.
.

I am truly disappointed that you can't handle a counter-point of view without demanding that these counter-points be removed if they disagree with your belief that girls should be told from basically birth that they have to cover themselves with no free will to wear what they want due to the fact that men supposedly have no control over their sexual urges. This dichotomy just makes no sense to me, how the left can claim to be so in favor of women's rights, and yet be so against them at the same time. Perhaps instead of being permanently offended, you could offer a response instead. I would really appreciate it.

[whatwhat]

actually I don't mean them as insults, you just take them that way. I am trying to determine what I said that was so insulting, but it is hard when you run to the mods with every post I make. I am truly disappointed that you can't handle a counter-point of view without demanding that these counter-points be removed if they disagree with your belief that girls should be told from basically birth that they have to cover themselves with no free will to wear what they want due to the fact that men supposedly have no control over their sexual urges. This dichotomy just makes no sense to me, how the left can claim to be so in favor of women's rights, and yet be so against them at the same time. Perhaps instead of being permanently offended, you could offer a response instead. I would really appreciate it.

And why do I think we shouldn't be forcing Muslim to not wear head coverings? Because I believe they have a choice in what they want to wear, and that there are better ways to educate women in feminism then forcing them to make choices that pleases us. Forcing women to do what you want is not the way to create systematic change, and educate the women on their rights.

[sooperphreek]

We live in Canada. Not in the Mideast.

interesting point. why is it that westerners dont have to wear and assimilate into islamic society when they go there? if that is the howls that people make here then why is it that westerners want to have the double standard? if its religious freedom then perhaps we should be more accommodating here in canada and not whine so much about how things are HERE. it doesnt seem to work for the extremists in the muslim countries. should we listen to the extremists here? is that another double standard?

[JLives]

actually I don't mean them as insults, you just take them that way. I am trying to determine what I said that was so insulting, but it is hard when you run to the mods with every post I make. I am truly disappointed that you can't handle a counter-point of view without demanding that these counter-points be removed if they disagree with your belief that girls should be told from basically birth that they have to cover themselves with no free will to wear what they want due to the fact that men supposedly have no control over their sexual urges. This dichotomy just makes no sense to me, how the left can claim to be so in favor of women's rights, and yet be so against them at the same time. Perhaps instead of being permanently offended, you could offer a response instead. I would really appreciate it.

A girl, in any culture, is told what they can and cannot wear by society. I get notices from the school every year that girls at my kid's school shouldn't wear spaghetti straps, shorts should be a certain length, no bellies showing etc. I find it offensive to boys that they are taught they are unable to control themselves because of what the girls wear. How about we just stop telling girls and women how to dress and let us be human beings who make our own choices?

There are many Muslim women who truly choose to wear these garments. There are also those who are don't. There are many women from all sorts of backgrounds who choose to dress modestly. There are nuns who cover just as much as Muslims. There are gingers who don't get along with the sun. Hopefully they don't vacation on a beach in France and be forced to strip in front of armed police.

There is no hypocrisy, it is equally offensive to force a woman to wear a garment as it is to forcefully strip it off of her. Male uniforms are considered the default, and female uniforms are special interest. It's time to change that outdated view.

[logicalview]

And why do I think we shouldn't be forcing Muslim to not wear head coverings?

This sentence is a double negative. What are you talking about? Yawn.

Because I believe they have a choice in what they want to wear,

and yet you enforce and agree with doing the exact opposite. Which goes back to the ideological pretzel you just tied yourself in. I didn't expect you to answer the question, as to do so truly, would be to go against your personal devotion to the politically correct movement, one that inherently supports a dichotomy. I don't understand it, and as expected, you've done nothing to educate me.

[JLives]

There is complete hypocrisy being demonstrated here. Total and absolute.

Absolutely. A man can wear whatever he wants but a woman is dictated to from birth in any country in the world what is "appropriate" or not. I can't wait to get over that hypocrisy.

[logicalview]

Absolutely. A man can wear whatever he wants but a woman is dictated to from birth in any country in the world .

any Muslim country anyway, or in a Western country where certain individuals are indoctrinated to a belief system solely dedicated to a fanatical desire to be as PC as possible, such that they actually tolerate intolerance and horrible treatment of women as tolerable to appear tolerant. And that's the problem.

[JLives]

any Muslim country anyway, or in a Western country where certain individuals are indoctrinated to a belief system solely dedicated to a fanatical desire to be as PC as possible, such that they actually tolerate intolerance and horrible treatment of women as tolerable to appear tolerant. And that's the problem.

Which country have you experienced being a woman in?

We are told constantly how to dress "appropriately" by friends, colleagues, schools, workplaces, the news. In Canada, as a white girl. When's the last time someone told you what was OK to wear?

[redwine]

A girl, in any culture, is told what they can and cannot wear by society. I get notices from the school every year that girls at my kid's school shouldn't wear spaghetti straps, shorts should be a certain length, no bellies showing etc. I find it offensive to boys that they are taught they are unable to control themselves because of what the girls wear. How about we just stop telling girls and women how to dress and let us be human beings who make our own choices?

There are many Muslim women who truly choose to wear these garments. There are also those who are don't. There are many women from all sorts of backgrounds who choose to dress modestly. There are nuns who cover just as much as Muslims. There are gingers who don't get along with the sun. Hopefully they don't vacation on a beach in France and be forced to strip in front of armed police.

There is no hypocrisy, it is equally offensive to force a woman to wear a garment as it is to forcefully strip it off of her. Male uniforms are considered the default, and female uniforms are special interest. It's time to change that outdated view.

I always assumed this was a rule to help teach the kids what is appropriate wear in a professional environment versus the beach or park? I think boys aren't allowed to wear shirts with certain phrases, shorts have to be a certain length as well, no? Some kids grow up without any idea as to what appropriate clothing is - I don't think its just about sex appeal but getting ready for the real world where you have to dress for the job you want/have, or the establishment you are visiting.

[Hassel99]

Absolutely. A man can wear whatever he wants but a woman is dictated to from birth in any country in the world what is "appropriate" or not. I can't wait to get over that hypocrisy.

A man can not wear anything that he wants...stop saying that...

[Veovis]

So the claims here are

Men can wear whatever they want (including nothing) and it is socially acceptable. (clearly false)

Women can be demanded to wear something by their spouses and religion, but not wearing it violates their choice to be told by men to wear it, therefore they are empowered women by wearing something they are told to wear by the men meaning they are then free women who can't be told when it may be inappropriate to wear as they made the choice to have no choice, and this makes them liberated women somehow.

Bizarre argument to make.

If the women had true free choice and that choice was to wear an item due to their feelings and not the feeling men told them they are to have, then the argument for the article is her choice and fine. Currently with many mid eastern women we are aware that true choice isn't quite there though there are some progressive families that do occasionally have this. (in most of those cases I have encountered no one wears any of the head wrappings to be honest), so the clothing in question isn't a matter of "choice" as no choice was ever really provided, so in supporting the concept of "you can wear this no matter where or what" has a side effect of stating that those in support of it also support the domination of women by men, which is bad.

HOWEVER. If your personal life no matter what it is (even if it means being obedient to your spouse without question), doesn't affect your ability to do your job, the employer shouldn't give two craps about it. If the outfit worn to work prevents the ability to do the job then there is a hindrance to the ability to do the job then there is an issue, with no hindrance and good job performance there is no issue due to clothing.

Two actual issues here then

Actual free choice of women

and

Lifestyle affecting employment

[Graham Adder]

To make the assumption that young boys won't be able to control themselves appropriately around girls in booty shorts, yoga pants and crop tops is absolutely and definitely a good judgement call to make.

JL, you are not male.
You cannot speak for males any more than males can speak for females in this.
I went through the developmental years of junior and senior high. I saw it from Guyland, and guess what JL?
We young guys took every available opportunity to catch a glimpse under the arms of girls' short sleeved shirts.
The jocks of my school hung around a particular doorway, as the view was the best on account of stair angles of departure and approach.

You have no idea. That is a mere drop in the bucket.

We talked trash in guy speak the same as girls talked trash in girl speak. We made lewd comments around the daylight seen through a gap, or the buttcrack cleavage sported by "that" girl.

Yes, we acted inappropriately. Thankfully, we didn't have yoga pants. booty shorts and such to deal with. We were bad enough as it was.

NEVER did we get out of line when teachers were watching. We were even careful not to make things seem obvious to the girls, but I'm sure in hindsight we were pretty obviously gawking.

To say that girls need to be allowed to wear whatever they want to wear is a bit absurd given that we are sadly not that far advanced.

I've got friends that have kids now, and from what I see the boys are still boys and still act like boys (for the most part), and the girls likewise. I'd be surprised to learn that they are so far ahead of where we were at that age, that they are in full control over their new found urges.

I think when it comes to dressing in a sexually attractive manner, versus dressing in a manner considered culturally offensive I'd be prone to put more into dressing up than insisting on dressing down.

We are animals.
We need some rules, guidance and regulation ESPECIALLY in our formative years.

[JLives]

^^ and that right there is what rape culture looks like. No, that doesn't mean I'm insinuating or accusing you in any way that you are capable of rape GA. At all. I have met you and you are good people.

Rape culture is the normalizing of societal attitudes towards gender and the objectification of women, as well as the dehumanizing of men. If a bare shoulder causes you to act in obscene ways, you are the problem, not the shirt. It's August and if I'm wearing short shorts and a crop top it's because it's f-ing hot out, not because I'm a walking advertisement for sexual advances. It's that simple.

[Graham Adder]

^^ and that right there is what rape culture looks like. No, that doesn't mean I'm insinuating or accusing you in any way that you are capable of rape GA. At all. I have met you and you are good people.

Rape culture is the normalizing of societal attitudes towards gender and the objectification of women, as well as the dehumanizing of men. If a bare shoulder causes you to act in obscene ways, you are the problem, not the shirt. It's August and if I'm wearing short shorts and a crop top it's because it's f-ing hot out, not because I'm a walking advertisement for sexual advances. It's that simple.

You do know that in hot temperatures, a loose fitting oversized shirt or bagy robe serves to keep you cool much better than subjecting your bare skin to the elements, right?

Ever see the field workers stripped down to shorts and flip flops?
Nope.
Bagy big clothing. Light and wafty in the breese.

So, tell me again how you're not going for a "look" by dressing according to today's latest fads?
Convince me that you're taking to the skimpy booty look for the sole purpose of staying cool on a hot day.
BS.

Rape culture?
Dramatic.

Thanks for the "good people" rating.
I'd say the same of you, JL.

Even though you drive one of those.

[JLives]

You do know that in hot temperatures, a loose fitting oversized shirt or bagy robe serves to keep you cool much better than subjecting your bare skin to the elements, right?

Ever see the field workers stripped down to shorts and flip flops?
Nope.
Bagy big clothing. Light and wafty in the breese.

So, tell me again how you're not going for a "look" by dressing according to today's latest fads?
Convince me that you're taking to the skimpy booty look for the sole purpose of staying cool on a hot day.
BS.

I don't actually wear those types of clothes but it is besides the point. Well the short shorts maybe but I have a sweet tattoo. I dress for me, not for you. What a woman wears is not an invitation to anything. That is the point. She doesn't need a reason and isn't required to give one. Even if she is sunbathing topless. Our mere presence is not an invitation for sexual advances.

Rape culture?
Dramatic.

Not at all. Those types of comments are the definition of what constitutes rape culture. It is why we have seen several University attending rapists get slaps on the wrists this year in the news because the judges didn't want to damage their education and ruin their lives. Who cares about the women's lives, get the boys back in class and on the swim team right? Surely you have seen some of their stories?

Thanks for the "good people" rating.
I'd say the same of you, JL.

Even though you drive one of those.

Now them's fightin' words.