Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

[Glacier]

This is really interesting and insightful.

[puterbrother]

And you know what else is interesting and insightful ? Mine is the first post and this video was posted April 05/17 !!!!
COWARDS !
By the way..I noticed,a while ago,that Superstore has a "halal" section. Peta,your silence is deafening !
This is a growing trend by large food companys such as Kraft and Loblaws .
Check out a utube video by Pat Condell called "boycott halal" for more info.
Wake up people !

[Queen K]

Puterbro, all the so called cowards are in this thread started by Logicalview.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=53557&hilit=+Whose+Islam%3F

144 pages of cowardly posts for you to peruse.

[jimsenchuk]

And you know what else is interesting and insightful ? Mine is the first post and this video was posted April 05/17 !!!!
COWARDS !
By the way..I noticed,a while ago,that Superstore has a "halal" section. Peta,your silence is deafening !
This is a growing trend by large food companys such as Kraft and Loblaws .
Check out a utube video by Pat Condell called "boycott halal" for more info.
Wake up people !

Wake up to what? Boycott all beef, worst meat for you. Halal is good food.

[Silverstarqueen]

Would anyone claim that All Catholics Benefit from Priests and Nuns molesting/abusing children?
We have all met many perfectly normal nice Catholics, that's why we don't blame them for the atrocities in the Reservation Schools, the kids molested by priest or nuns.
So this idea that Muslims benefit from Terrorism makes as much sense.

[Glacier]

Would anyone claim that All Catholics Benefit from Priests and Nuns molesting/abusing children?

I've never heard that argument, but I would be interested in you could cobble together a coherent argument to support this claim.

But did you watch the video? I would also be interested in your views as to where he was wrong.

[neilsimon]

Would anyone claim that All Catholics Benefit from Priests and Nuns molesting/abusing children?

I've never heard that argument, but I would be interested in you could cobble together a coherent argument to support this claim.

But did you watch the video? I would also be interested in your views as to where he was wrong.

Actually, if you took the same approach that the author of the video does: Every time a Catholic scandal occurs, there is usually some representative of the Catholic faith on TV or in the newspapers. This allows them to explain how Catholicism is a religion of peace and love. This drives some people to visit a church and learn some one-sided view of Catholicism and some of these will convert. These conversions benefit all Catholics.
Of course, it is absurd. It ignores the fact that such terrorist attacks/scandals create a negative view of these religions in society, causing huge pressure on people to suppress their religion, or even abandon it completely. Additionally, the terrorist attacks/scandals will in and of themselves encourage existing believers to question their own faith and potentially abandon it too.

In fairness, the author of the video has some good points to make, and his argument is nowhere near as bad as many others out there, but it makes bold claims for which he provides no empirical evidence and asks us to just accept them as fact.

[Glacier]

Actually, if you took the same approach that the author of the video does: Every time a Catholic scandal occurs, there is usually some representative of the Catholic faith on TV or in the newspapers. This allows them to explain how Catholicism is a religion of peace and love. This drives some people to visit a church and learn some one-sided view of Catholicism and some of these will convert. These conversions benefit all Catholics.
Of course, it is absurd. It ignores the fact that such terrorist attacks/scandals create a negative view of these religions in society, causing huge pressure on people to suppress their religion, or even abandon it completely. Additionally, the terrorist attacks/scandals will in and of themselves encourage existing believers to question their own faith and potentially abandon it too.

In fairness, the author of the video has some good points to make, and his argument is nowhere near as bad as many others out there, but it makes bold claims for which he provides no empirical evidence and asks us to just accept them as fact.

You would need some sort of evidence as a start. There is LOTS of evidence that conversions increase after terrorist attacks. Google is your friend.
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... imwjournal
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/worry ... -hill-imam
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/2 ... 35572.html
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/docume ... 101/inline
https://globalecco.org/ctx-v1n1/violent ... s-to-islam
etc.

Maybe it does with Catholics. Like I said, I'm open to the idea. It is not absurd if you know anything about human behavior. Your argument is completely debunked. Terrorist attacks might cause a negative view toward religions in society, but mostly by people who are not religious. Plus, since most people don't know much about Islam, they tend to point their score toward the religions they do know. Plus, it's considered racist/bigoted to think of Islam in a negative light. As a whole there's a net gain for Islam, at least in terms of net converts.

"Facts don't care about your feelings." ~ Ben Shapiro

[neilsimon]

...
You would need some sort of evidence as a start. There is LOTS of evidence that conversions increase after terrorist attacks. Google is your friend.
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... imwjournal
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/worry ... -hill-imam
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/2 ... 35572.html
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/docume ... 101/inline
https://globalecco.org/ctx-v1n1/violent ... s-to-islam
etc.

Maybe it does with Catholics. Like I said, I'm open to the idea. It is not absurd if you know anything about human behavior. Your argument is completely debunked. Terrorist attacks might cause a negative view toward religions in society, but mostly by people who are not religious. Plus, since most people don't know much about Islam, they tend to point their score toward the religions they do know. Plus, it's considered racist/bigoted to think of Islam in a negative light. As a whole there's a net gain for Islam, at least in terms of net converts.

"Facts don't care about your feelings." ~ Ben Shapiro

I don't dispute that some might convert, though none of the provided info actually gave quantitative data of significant power (interviewing 13 people is essentially worthless). What I would dispute is that the conversions by those who have decided to learn about Islam due to increased exposure would somehow be greater than the net damage done to the religion by these incidents, including but not limited to those who quietly abandon their religion. Of course, when you introduce a new religion to a large number of people, especially one of which they have limited or inaccurate knowledge, some will convert, but others will abandon or let lapse their religion, and may not be so keen to pass it on. We see this behaviour time and again in history, where due to social pressure and trying to get away from discrimination and oppression, people will deny their heritage to fit in. For example, Irish, Jewish, etc. immigrants to the US and elsewhere would often change their names to escape the socially negative consequences they may otherwise suffer.

In fact, there is an example of where Catholicism has dwindled rapidly since the sex abuse scandals started coming out, and that is Ireland. Attendance at mass has dropped from 90% in the 1980s to less than 20% in recent years. While one could argue that as such people no longer attending mass is actually a benefit to the average Irishman, who now has more time to get up to other activities on Saturday evening or Sunday morning, I don't think that the original video was arguing similar as a benefit for Islam.

[Glacier]

You have me convince that Catholic adherents are in decline. But meanwhile, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada and all industrialized nations since 9/11, faster even than "no religion."

The sex abuses weakened the church. They were rounded ridiculed in the media and elsewhere for covering up sex crimes. This weakened the church. By contrast, Islam grows stronger with every terrorist attack. For example, San Bernardino happened or Orlando or Paris or Cologne, and the intimidate reaction by the media is not to weaken the mosque, but the strengthen it, by lighting first and foremost that Islam is a religion of peace, so we must be vigilant to make sure no one behaves with bigotry toward Muslims.

There are a number of reasons for this difference. One is that Islam does not have a pope (caliph) that leads the entire Ummah, so you can never blame a terrorist attack on the leadership like you can with Catholics and sex abuse. Even in this thread I could say "Catholicisms is bunk" and you and rustled would be like #!%@! YA!, but you will go to your grave defending even the slightest criticism of Islam, and you guys have a visceral reaction. Why this is, I don't know. I would guess it's because the terrorist attacks have created fear in you, so you feel obligated to defend a religion that you probably don't know much about. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just theorizing.

[neilsimon]

You have me convince that Catholic adherents are in decline. But meanwhile, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada and all industrialized nations since 9/11, faster even than "no religion."

Can you show evidence that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada because of 9/11? If the evidence is correlation only (which again I would be surprised by), that proves little. Conversion numbers also fail to take many other factors into account, such as long term financial loss due to widespread discrimination. If you don't think that it is common just ask anyone who even "looks Muslim" or go and try to set-up a mosque near a church and see how welcoming people are.

The sex abuses weakened the church. They were rounded ridiculed in the media and elsewhere for covering up sex crimes. This weakened the church. By contrast, Islam grows stronger with every terrorist attack. For example, San Bernardino happened or Orlando or Paris or Cologne, and the intimidate reaction by the media is not to weaken the mosque, but the strengthen it, by lighting first and foremost that Islam is a religion of peace, so we must be vigilant to make sure no one behaves with bigotry toward Muslims.

There are plenty of cases where the media does not do this. If you look at the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Bill Maher, they both frequently condemn Islam and their voices certainly do not soften in the aftermath of an attack. You may find that the media does sometimes try to separate the acts from the religion as there have been cases of violence against Muslims and others who look Muslim to their attackers. The media is basically recognising how much hatred is already out there and trying to stem its effects.

There are a number of reasons for this difference. One is that Islam does not have a pope (caliph) that leads the entire Ummah, so you can never blame a terrorist attack on the leadership like you can with Catholics and sex abuse. Even in this thread I could say "Catholicisms is bunk" and you and rustled would be like #!%@! YA!, but you will go to your grave defending even the slightest criticism of Islam, and you guys have a visceral reaction. Why this is, I don't know. I would guess it's because the terrorist attacks have created fear in you, so you feel obligated to defend a religion that you probably don't know much about. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just theorizing.

Yes, you are just theorising and obviously you just don't know me. I certainly wouldn't support you in condemning Catholicism or Catholics in general, not least because I was brought up so and much of my family still is. I respect them and their beliefs, even if I do not share them. I will defend that it is a religion of peace and love, because that is what it is in my eyes, and at the same time I can say that some Catholic adherents and officials have done terrible things. This is largely true of most mainstream religions.

[rustled]

... Even in this thread I could say "Catholicisms is bunk" and you and rustled would be like #!%@! YA!, but you will go to your grave defending even the slightest criticism of Islam, and you guys have a visceral reaction. Why this is, I don't know. I would guess it's because the terrorist attacks have created fear in you, so you feel obligated to defend a religion that you probably don't know much about. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just theorizing.

You're wrong. I've criticized facets of both religions, just as I've criticized those who become useful idiots for either side of extremism. Which is, IMO, where that fellow you admire so much falls. An extremist who seems to have struck quite a resonating chord with you, for whatever reason. IMO.

So you see visceral reaction, where there's none. You see fear where there's none. (I see neither in neilsimon's posts, either, just thoughtful dialogue. Perhaps you're projecting your own experiences with this topic onto others? Perhaps not.) And, inevitably, you fail to see when I do criticize the facets of this religion which, IMO, have no part in today's world, since that doesn't fit your narrative about me. Having watched only a few of the videos that appeal to you on this topic, I think I understand why this happens, and of course you're forgiven.

But hey, this is about discussing your guy's message du jour, so please, don't let's derail the conversation with talk about what I do and don't believe.

Carry on.

[Glacier]

Can you show evidence that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada because of 9/11? No. Why would I do that? I never said that's the reason Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and in Canada. Interestingly enough, it's one of the main arguments Muslims use to show that Islam is true. David Wood has another video that refutes this argument:


If the evidence is correlation only (which again I would be surprised by), that proves little. Conversion numbers also fail to take many other factors into account, such as long term financial loss due to widespread discrimination. If you don't think that it is common just ask anyone who even "looks Muslim" or go and try to set-up a mosque near a church and see how welcoming people are. Obviously bigotry against Muslims exists. No one with any sense denies that. It's not to the level of bigotry against Jews which is so high that Jews are leaving Europe, but it's definitely there. Discrimination and bigotry above a certain level will lead to reduced numbers due to emmigration. So far we aren't seeing within the Muslim community.

There are plenty of cases where the media does not do this. If you look at the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Bill Maher, they both frequently condemn Islam and their voices certainly do not soften in the aftermath of an attack. You may find that the media does sometimes try to separate the acts from the religion as there have been cases of violence against Muslims and others who look Muslim to their attackers. The media is basically recognising how much hatred is already out there and trying to stem its effects.
Like I said, bigotry exists against Muslims. Unlike you, I don't watch Bill O'Reilly, so I can't comment his antics, but I've seen Bill Maher, and yes, he sure does condemn Islam as is his right. He also condemns Catholics and other religious groups as part of his schtick. The media's job is not to hide the truth and cover up and apologize for atrocities. Rather, it is to show the raw truth, not to make white lies.

Some Muslims are harmed by terrorism, especially when the terrorist is attacking other Muslims. There are probably attacks against Muslims after each terrorist attack, though most of the ones the media keep bringing up tend to be fake for some weird reason. No one denies that some Muslims are discriminated against because Islam has a bad reputation. Thankfully, the vast majority of people have evolved to the point being far less bigoted than their parents and grand parents, and will go out of their way to stop someone who is discriminating. But yes, some Muslims are harassed and discriminated against, but as a whole, all the various groups of Muslims do benefit from terrorist attacks (at least in the west), which is the point of the video. It doesn't mean literally every single person who's a Muslim.



Yes, you are just theorising and obviously you just don't know me. I certainly wouldn't support you in condemning Catholicism or Catholics in general, not least because I was brought up so and much of my family still is. I respect them and their beliefs, even if I do not share them. I will defend that it is a religion of peace and love, because that is what it is in my eyes, and at the same time I can say that some Catholic adherents and officials have done terrible things. This is largely true of most mainstream religions. I agree for the most part, except I think it's okay to condemn ideas. In this case, Catholicism. I have friends who are Catholic, and they're great people, but I have some problems with some of the doctrines, starting with the celibacy of priests. I think it's a bad idea, and has led to sexual abuse. But that's my opinion, and my Catholic friends who disagree with me have their opinion and that's fine. I don't hate anyone for disagreeing with me. "Diversity [of ideas] is our strength." ~ Justin Trudeau

[Queen K]

August 1, Bavaria will try to ban the burka.

Good luck!

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/why ... li=AAggFp5

[spooker]

You have me convince that Catholic adherents are in decline. But meanwhile, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada and all industrialized nations since 9/11, faster even than "no religion."

The Wikipedia entry for Catholicism in Canada shows the slowing growth and now decline ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Canada#Population

If you look at the same basic stats for Islam you see the same trend ... (Historical Population chart)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada

Religion in general is losing it's adherents ...