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Shutting down of ideas

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Shutting down of ideas

Postby fvkasm2x » Jul 24th, 2017, 5:55 am

When did it become acceptable to just shut down the differing of opinion or ideologies?

Has it always occurred, but is just getting more attention or becoming more prolific now?

What I mean by this, is the notion that if someone disagrees with you, instead of listening to their point of view, debating that view, providing examples for and against your/their side, etc... encourages thought, learning and communication. By just saying "No that's wrong" or "No you're a racist/bigot/sexist or whatever insult you want to say" all you do is push the other side further away from meeting closer to the middle.

You can't possibly curry any favor by being so rigid.

We see it on liberal college campuses, which is scary considering it's a place of learning. We see it from the right, who basically say "I'm gonna do whatever I want and I don't care what you think or who it hurts." We seem to be drifting farther apart, when we are in a time (with all the knowledge and technology) where you'd think we'd be closer together.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby kgcayenne » Jul 24th, 2017, 8:13 am

People have become more self-absorbed. We have all this tech that allows us to communicate, but we are instead, more disconnected than ever from each other and our humanity.

Rigidity is something that is detrimental and is a symptom of something else. It's not good.
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby Even Steven » Jul 24th, 2017, 8:18 am

The older I get, the less vocal I become with my opinions. I have them, but I choose not to argue with people over them. What's the point of that? Just wasting time and energy arguing with idiots? Caring what people think of my opinion and how they agree/disagree?

I got better things to do.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby dogspoiler » Jul 24th, 2017, 8:33 am

I have had to listen to hundreds of people that just want to spout their opinion and they are not happy unless you agree with them. After a while you can identify this type after a few words. It saves a lot of time and frustration to end the conversation quickly
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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby fvkasm2x » Jul 24th, 2017, 9:05 am

kgcayenne wrote:People have become more self-absorbed.


But wouldn't engaging in dialogue and expanding your perceptions or knowledge base be entirely self serving? I love love love learning new things. I had an interesting discussion with some people about pay inequality and gender bias in the work place. I have my own views, which were COMPLETELY different than theirs, but I did learn some new views and concepts.

Same with religion recently. I find if you learn more, the better you become.

Even Steven wrote:The older I get, the less vocal I become with my opinions. I have them, but I choose not to argue with people over them.


Yes. That is a struggle I have daily. I feel like a grumpy old man sometimes, even at 39 years of age.

dogspoiler wrote:I have had to listen to hundreds of people that just want to spout their opinion and they are not happy unless you agree with them. After a while you can identify this type after a few words. It saves a lot of time and frustration to end the conversation quickly


Very true. So how do they get that way?

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby kgcayenne » Jul 24th, 2017, 9:26 am

Reading a couple of good Russian novels highlighted a some things:

    * disagreeing with someone used to be okay
    * strangers on a train could debate without animosity
    * the same opinions were debated in the 1800s
    * debates could last into the wee hours
    * damn they drank a LOT of alcohol.
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby jimmy4321 » Jul 24th, 2017, 9:38 am

It's just so much easier to sell a polar opposite opinion, no room for middle ground,compromise or complicated details.

Media knows this, politicians know this, etc.
This attitude eventually trickles down to the general population.
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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby neilsimon » Jul 24th, 2017, 10:48 am

There are a number of problems. People seem to think that their personal opinion, no matter how poorly supported by experts, is a valid opinion. At very least, many of them think that all opinions are equal, some are more equal that others and theirs is the most equal of all. Any challenge of their opinion is an attack on their person and intellect, and they are at least as intelligent as anyone else.

Opinion is reinforced by a steady stream of polarised and intentionally polarising opinion from politicians, "journalists", social circles of similar opinion and social media algorithms (which tend to show you what you want to see, not what you need to see). The middle ground, the acceptance that one might be wrong, and all humility is lost through this reinforcement of opinion.

Certain groups deliberately spread lies knowing that emotion is more powerful than logic for most people, especially those who are not trained to treat logic above all else.

I find that there are far too many who are unable to argue without resorting to ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments. It is the norm and not the exception.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby OldIslander » Jul 24th, 2017, 11:25 am

If any of you follow "The Oatmeal", Matthew Inman offers an answer to the OP's specific question. It is called "You're Not Going to Believe What I'm About to Tell You", and it is quite brilliant. It'll take you a minute or so to go through it. (It contains a bit of NSFW language.)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
"Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote."

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby Piecemaker » Jul 24th, 2017, 11:34 am

I think there are still places one can go on the internet and in person for a good intellectual conversation. However many forums and venues are frequented by those who are not analytical by nature, nor skilled in critical thinking. Or, by those who share the same beliefs at its establishment. For example, churches or organizations for a specific group (anti-abortion, LGBT, cultural groups and so on.) We humans tend to be most comfortable around those who share our beliefs. We also need to be right and feel that our beliefs are justified. Thus, we tend to scorn others who seem (to us) to be wrong.
It is further compounded when one's beliefs have not been examined, but rather adopted from one's parents or others with influence.
Intelligence is also a factor when it comes to healthy debate and temperament. Some of us can admit we may not have all the answers, while others will resort to any tactic to be right (ridicule, personal attacks, red herrings, falsehood and etc.)
It's possible to do all the right things and still get a bad result.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby neilsimon » Jul 24th, 2017, 11:35 am

OldIslander wrote:If any of you follow "The Oatmeal", Matthew Inman offers an answer to the OP's specific question. It is called "You're Not Going to Believe What I'm About to Tell You", and it is quite brilliant. It'll take you a minute or so to go through it. (It contains a bit of NSFW language.)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I so wish that everyone would read this. It is brilliant and easy to follow and we can pretty much all learn from it

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby slimebucket » Aug 26th, 2017, 10:02 am

I honestly have thoughts of writing a book on this.

I used to have a huge online presence. Used to be a part of many forums, make blogs, work on web pages, part of chat rooms, mod projects for video games, but now, I am afraid to ever post anything.

It seems no matter what I post, what my opinion is, what info I have, I always get the same responses.

"If you don't like the company shut up and go away, how dare you tell people how that company screwed you! no one cares!"
"You have no idea what your talking about. You just like every other trump supporter. Useless"
"I looked up your post history and these posts I dont agree with. I wont even talk about what you posted in this topic, only will talk about things i found in your post history"
"If you don't admit my idea is right you are a moron and everyone should not like you"

I have seen times where I post a topic, then like 20 people post in my topic slander, insults and what not, not even talking about the original post. So I polity request others stay on topic, and then they all report me for being offensive and my posts which contain no swears insults or slander all get deleted, while all the posts insulting me, trolling me, all stay.

I was forced to shut down all my forum accounts, all my mod projects, I retired from being online. This now is the only forum I choose to post in, because it seems like the only forum I have ever found that is modded PROPERLY.

I shut down facebook accounts, twitter accounts, literally everything. So tired of everyone thinking they can push their negative views and hate on me, but when I have information that makes their opinion wrong they instantly go to trolling and insulting.


what bothers me with online places now a days is not the negative trolls. People are allowed to do and say what ever they want. My problem is usually the modders, how (not on this forum, but every other I have seen) they only seem to ban, block or delete comments and posts where people defend themselves. They allow attack comments, trolls, topic de-railments, but when someone uses the truth to defend themselves, while NOT BREAKING any forum rules, it usually is taken PERSONALLY by a modder (who might be posting comments as if they are a normal member, but oh no you have an opinion that goes against theres, DELETE DELETE DELETE, BLOCK, AND BAN)


There is nothing more in the world that frustrates me more, when people allow bullying, trolling, harassment, then the moment the person getting trolled, for days, months, years, gets upset due to how they are treated, THEY are pointed out as being "angry" "mad" "emo" "problematic" yet NO ONE SAID ANY OF THOSE THINGS TO THE PEOPLE BULLYING OR TROLLING.

Seems like trolls and bullies just band together and ignore each others actions and focus on attacking their "mark"


What I find saddest about this whole thing, is that usually the people who are internet bullies and trolls, are the same people who are VERY vocal about stopping bullying, and that bullying is wrong, but then they get online and become that which they hate.

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby Opeeved » Aug 26th, 2017, 10:31 am

I agree with you^^
I disagree with your use of all caps. I hate being yelled at,that's what italics or bold are for. ;)
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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby my5cents » Aug 26th, 2017, 10:39 am

OldIslander wrote:If any of you follow "The Oatmeal", Matthew Inman offers an answer to the OP's specific question. It is called "You're Not Going to Believe What I'm About to Tell You", and it is quite brilliant. It'll take you a minute or so to go through it. (It contains a bit of NSFW language.)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe


Thank you for posting this Oldslander.

It should be mandatory reading for everyone who posts on this site. BEFORE they are allowed to post on this forum.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it"

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Re: Shutting down of ideas

Postby Opeeved » Aug 26th, 2017, 10:58 am

That's awesome. This forum in a nutshell. I so appreciate someone has the creativity and intellect to work this out.
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