New take on equality

[fvkasm2x]

So I had an interesting discussion with someone the other day on equality. It was sparked while we watched the new Wonder Woman movie (and a few beers in).

Going to paraphrase quite a bit, as I can't remember exact points. But in short, when I asked him to explain his stance that "gender equality was garbage" he came up with this:

Throughout history, to the victor go the spoils. Whoever dominates a culture, country, people, etc... makes the rules. Kings, dictators, victorious armies, etc... all lead because they want to. If you don't like it, you have to beat them somehow.

English in India. Europeans in North America. Greeks, Romans, Turks, Ottomans, Genghis Khan, Hitler... you name it, they took what they wanted and you either had to take it back or maybe you never did.

So why should women be treated as equals? Because you whine about it? Big deal. Go out and get a job. Go out and become president. Go out and train, educate, work your butt off. Who is stopping you? If you say nobody... then go do it. Congrats, you're equal. If you say men, then too bad for you. That means you're being dominated by the stronger sex.

In no other time since the dawn of man, other than now, were people just given stuff for complaining and expecting things. You had to take it. You had to earn it. You had to fight for it.

If I ask a woman WHY she deserves equality, don't tell me it's because they're people too. Men are no better than women. Well why were all those leaders, countries or people better than the groups they conquered? They weren't... they just did what they wanted.

Same goes for mentally ill, physically disabled and 3rd world countries. You aren't equal. If you were, you wouldn't need help with everything. Just like bigger, taller, stronger people aren't equal to midgets. Just like dummies aren't equal to geniuses. People are not equal and never should be.


I thought it was an interesting take. Obviously not one that would fly in this day in age... because of "feelings" and we like to pretend we're an advanced race/civilization.

[neilsimon]

It's an interesting defence of might makes right, but this is not likely to be a view held by anyone of any significant understanding.

Firstly, kings and other rulers didn't get to determine the rules just because they wanted to, but because they wanted to and had support, either militarily or otherwise. Without the support, they would have achieved nothing. In modern times, this basically means that those with the most political support get to determine the rules. The fight for equal rights is one women fought and won in this very way. The fight for general equality is one they are winning, because they have support. The key to advancing a cause is no longer about how strong you are, but how much support you can get for what you want. While recent years have shown some decline in widespread support for equality ideals, there is still a hunger for it among the educated and let us be completely honest, the future, the strength, the wealth, all belong to them.

[Queen K]

Men don't need help with stuff?

[fvkasm2x]

It's an interesting defence of might makes right, but this is not likely to be a view held by anyone of any significant understanding.

Firstly, kings and other rulers didn't get to determine the rules just because they wanted to, but because they wanted to and had support, either militarily or otherwise. Without the support, they would have achieved nothing. In modern times, this basically means that those with the most political support get to determine the rules. The fight for equal rights is one women fought and won in this very way. The fight for general equality is one they are winning, because they have support. The key to advancing a cause is no longer about how strong you are, but how much support you can get for what you want. While recent years have shown some decline in widespread support for equality ideals, there is still a hunger for it among the educated and let us be completely honest, the future, the strength, the wealth, all belong to them.

But what about mentally or physically challenged? Are they equal to "normal" folk as well?

He has an interesting point. Not everyone is equal, but for some reason we have a hard time saying that. When we discussed it... he used us as an example. He's taller and in better shape. Dude's a physical beast. So he flat out asked me "Are we equal in terms of physical attributes?" I had to say no. He admitted that he wasn't as smart as me, so I had the intellectual attributes over him. He's better in some ways, I am better in others. Some people excel at other things. Some races or genders are better than others at things (women for example, are often more compassionate or nurturing than men). It's not always sexist or racist.

Like how some sports analysts have said men are better athletes than women, or blacks are built better for athletics than white people. Those comments have been skewered by the public as sexist and racist. But aren't they true?

Obviously, he wasn't saying that "inferior" people have to take what they want through warfare and violence... but he's saying you shouldn't just get things handed to you, because that's not how it's ever been in societies.

[neilsimon]

It's an interesting defence of might makes right, but this is not likely to be a view held by anyone of any significant understanding.

Firstly, kings and other rulers didn't get to determine the rules just because they wanted to, but because they wanted to and had support, either militarily or otherwise. Without the support, they would have achieved nothing. In modern times, this basically means that those with the most political support get to determine the rules. The fight for equal rights is one women fought and won in this very way. The fight for general equality is one they are winning, because they have support. The key to advancing a cause is no longer about how strong you are, but how much support you can get for what you want. While recent years have shown some decline in widespread support for equality ideals, there is still a hunger for it among the educated and let us be completely honest, the future, the strength, the wealth, all belong to them.

But what about mentally or physically challenged? Are they equal to "normal" folk as well?

Are they, no society doesn't treat them as equal, but should they be, that is a different question. At the same time, legally they are afforded the same rights as anyone else.

He has an interesting point. Not everyone is equal, but for some reason we have a hard time saying that.

That's because we use the term equal in interesting ways. He is physically your superior, but should he have greater rights because of that? You are intellectually his superior and from what you describe, so are most people, so does that mean that we should have greater rights than him?
When we say people should be treated as equals, we are not saying that they are the same, or equally good at something, or equally valuable to the economy, or equally capable in general, but that we as a society should not value one person over another, with rare exception.
His argument isn't new to me, nor is it new in general. The funny thing is that he fits with the stereotype of the person who would believe that inequality isn't a bad thing. Basically, physically formidable men, are more likely to believe that inequality is justified, as are those without significant intellect. Well educated, informed and less physically strong people are less likely to believe it and are more likely to advocate for equality for all.
Two less than great links, but I'm not too interested in finding the actual articles I've read on the issue:
https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Muscular-men-less-likely-to-support-social-and-economic-equality-study-suggests
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289615001026

...
Obviously, he wasn't saying that "inferior" people have to take what they want through warfare and violence... but he's saying you shouldn't just get things handed to you, because that's not how it's ever been in societies.

That's basically an argument for the status quo and no change, which is easy to do if you have a good position to start with.

[whatwhat]

But what about mentally or physically challenged? Are they equal to "normal" folk as well?

Well there are probably no two people who are completely equal: same sex, ability, race, doesn't really matter. One will always probably always be a little bit stronger, smarter, kinder, more able than the other.

I think the issue is when our biases of what is "equal" get into our actions/words/beliefs. When someone who is physically or mentally challenged is all of a sudden not given the opportunity to do something or treated a certain way based solely on what we think of their ability is, it becomes an issue.

A good example is I have a close friend who is in a wheelchair due to a muscle disorder. She is pretty small, and has a curved spin. She looks pretty "disabled" but mentally is one of the smartest people I know. She is in her last years of university for engineering. While she may not be "equal" physically, people tend to not treat her equally mentally as well just because they perceive her disability a certain way. They don't even care to get to know her before trying to scream in her face, or slow down their speech, or speak to whomever is with her like she isn't even there.

I get that people should just go out and get what they want if they are actually equal, but it clearly isn't always as easy when the people who hold the power have very clear biases of what is equal. Good examples would be how long it took women to get rights, slavery and segregation. Obviously those are old examples, but issues are faced by minorities (the people who seem to face inequality the most unfortunately) every day. If you'd like to learn about them the internet is an amazing place to do research, you just have to be in the place to listen.

[fvkasm2x]

A good example is I have a close friend who is in a wheelchair due to a muscle disorder. She is pretty small, and has a curved spin. She looks pretty "disabled" but mentally is one of the smartest people I know. She is in her last years of university for engineering. While she may not be "equal" physically, people tend to not treat her equally mentally as well just because they perceive her disability a certain way. They don't even care to get to know her before trying to scream in her face, or slow down their speech, or speak to whomever is with her like she isn't even there.

Ya, I have a buddy in a wheelchair. Hit a tree skiing. He's probably in better shape than me now. lol
Middle age and beer/chicken wings have done some damage and it's a daily struggle. Meanwhile, he's out there doing all sorts of extreme sports in these fancy chairs and stuff he gets. It's amazing. Mind's obviously there too.

Limits aren't necessarily limits.

I also have a buddy with spina bifida and quite frankly, he's a mess physically. And because of his severe physical condition, he probably didn't get as full of an education he could have if he was healthy. He's not stupid by any means, but he's been limited. He had to do a lot of reading in bed. He grew up in a time where he couldn't just use computers to "be in class" or do anything in the virtual world. If he was in pain or the place couldn't accommodate him, he didn't participate.

Just because you "might" be less, doesn't mean you actually need to be. Hell, look at Stephen Hawking and all he's accomplished contrary to medical opinion

[whatwhat]

Ya, I have a buddy in a wheelchair. Hit a tree skiing. He's probably in better shape than me now. lol
Middle age and beer/chicken wings have done some damage and it's a daily struggle. Meanwhile, he's out there doing all sorts of extreme sports in these fancy chairs and stuff he gets. It's amazing. Mind's obviously there too.

Limits aren't necessarily limits.

I also have a buddy with spina bifida and quite frankly, he's a mess physically. And because of his severe physical condition, he probably didn't get as full of an education he could have if he was healthy. He's not stupid by any means, but he's been limited. He had to do a lot of reading in bed. He grew up in a time where he couldn't just use computers to "be in class" or do anything in the virtual world. If he was in pain or the place couldn't accommodate him, he didn't participate.

Just because you "might" be less, doesn't mean you actually need to be. Hell, look at Stephen Hawking and all he's accomplished contrary to medical opinion

Exactly. Just because someone has some sort of disability doesn't mean they aren't able in other areas. But sometimes peoples view of their disability causes them to treat them as "unequal". A couple years ago I did my practicum at a local vocation program for people with disabilities. It was amazing the people with mental disabilities who kicked a** in the special olympics. Like amazing. People who got to travel all over the world for swimming and skiing. These people took their sport so seriously, would train and compete just like any other "able" athlete would. But they needed a little extra help learning different skills to be able to get a job in the future.

There are people in our society that might never be seen as "able". Someone with down syndrome, or a mental/physical disability who might never be what we describe as "smart, or actively able". While they may not be "equal", are they still deserving of respect and equal rights?

I would argue yes, others might not. I guess it depends on whether or not you think "feelings" are important, or that our society is advanced. If you don't think we are, or shouldn't be then it is difficult to argue those kind of values. But I am fine going into my local Starbucks/grocery store/clothing store and having to wait a couple extra minutes for someone with a disability to help me. While they may not be as "equal" as a more "normal, able bodied" person, I am happy to know that they are given the opportunity to live their life with a purpose. But maybe those are just stupid feelings.

[richardclank]

Same goes for mentally ill, physically disabled and 3rd world countries. You aren't equal. If you were, you wouldn't need help with everything.

I really don't understand what it is with people here talking about mental illness in extremes. Yes, there are mentally ill people who need help with everything but there are others who can function just fine on their own as long as there's enough money to do so. They might struggle a bit more but can function.

Who's stopping mentally ill people from being equal? I'd have to say people who don't understand mental illness and fire employees very quickly. People are fired for not being able to make eye-contact or for having to constantly hold a special item for anxiety reasons....or for constantly counting tiles...or a million other things that are "weird" but don't really impact the ability to perform tasks at a job.

[fvkasm2x]

Who's stopping mentally ill people from being equal?

Well, their mental illness would. If it affects their learning or intelligence... they aren't going to be equal intellectually. If it affects them physically, they'd be inferior compared to "normal" healthy people.

So for the definition of the original argument, there'd be no way for them to earn equality through might or intelligence.

[richardclank]

Who's stopping mentally ill people from being equal?

Well, their mental illness would. If it affects their learning or intelligence

Ummm, ok, but my post was about mentally ill people who can function normally, ie have no intelligence issues and may even have above average intelligence.

Not trying to be insulting but your lack of knowledge about mental illness and blanket statements about how they're not equal are a prime example of the ignorance the general populace has about mental illnesses.

Many of them are just as "equal" as you or others, but are held back due to monetary issues because people think not making eye contact or whatever is some sort of slight or attack.

In order for people to truly be equal there really needs to be more education about not only mental illnesses but gender and so many other things.

[fvkasm2x]

Not trying to be insulting but your lack of knowledge about mental illness and blanket statements about how they're not equal are a prime example of the ignorance the general populace has about mental illnesses.

Not lacking in knowledge, you just don't agree with me and blanket statements can be true. Just because you are offended by something, doesn't make it less true.

You've just got an ax to grind and you're so wrapped up in your bias, you contradict yourself.

Ummm, ok, but my post was about mentally ill people who can function normally, ie have no intelligence issues and may even have above average intelligence.

Many of them are just as "equal" as you or others, but are held back due to monetary issues because people think not making eye contact or whatever is some sort of slight or attack.

If you can't make eye contact and lack social skills, either verbally or non-verbal... then you're not equal. You have an impediment of some sort. You're not as successful and can't make money, because of your illness. That's almost the definition of what I stated.

My weakest spot in terms of knowledge and/or intellect is mathematics. There are probably literally tens of millions of people who are better than me at math. Thus, they are superior to me in that area. Which means, I am not their equal. That's ok. I don't need to get upset and freak out about that.

For the sake of this argument, people with a mental disability would not be equal to most people without a disability. However, savants or people with Asperger's might be superior to "normal" people if they've developed an amazing talent or skill. It is what it is. It's not offensive. You're just offended. Big difference

[richardclank]

For the sake of this argument, people with a mental disability would not be equal to most people without a disability. However, savants or people with Asperger's might be superior to "normal" people if they've developed an amazing talent or skill. It is what it is. It's not offensive. You're just offended. Big difference

I'm just shocked that with how easy it is to access information that people still lump all mental illnesses together into a big pile, and make stereotypical remarks about ALL mentally ill people being lesser somehow. You really need to read up on the differences and how a lot of mentally ill people actually have superior IQs to those who display no signs of mental illnesses.

For the sake of your argument about equality, you're essentially saying the mightiest and the most intelligent are more equal than others. It doesn't make any sense because you obviously don't know enough about mental illnesses and other conditions to realize many of these people are smarter.

The argument that because they don't make eye-contact or have bad social skills doesn't make them inferior unless. This kind of thinking is so backwards that I find it difficult to believe you're being serious. Your example of being bad at math making someone inferior is a lot more coherent than trying to argue that a lack of eye contact is some sort of impediment that makes a person less than equal.

[fvkasm2x]

Your example of being bad at math making someone inferior is a lot more coherent than trying to argue that a lack of eye contact is some sort of impediment that makes a person less than equal.

*removed*

You're actually saying that someone bad at math is more inferior than someone with a mental illness? Social skills are a necessity in life. You certainly don't need them in today's technology age, but if you don't have them... you're not as well equipped as someone who has them.

*removed*

[richardclank]

Bad social skills only make a person "inferior" in that a lot of people don't know the first thing about mental illnesses (as is evident in this thread) and will fire anyone who appears to be "different."

The person with bad social skills is still capable of doing the job - depending on what it is - it's the unwillingness of people to see beyond their noses that creates an artificial equality gap. Your opening post is all about people who actually are physically weak or mentally incompetent being inferior which is possibly true on some level - but many people with mental illnesses aren't any of these things. So how about we dump lump them into false categories due to a misunderstanding or uneducated view of what mental illness actually is? That'd be great, if possible.