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Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LTD » Nov 23rd, 2017, 6:41 am

Verum wrote:I've noticed similar with other employers, offering around 75% of the pay one would expect pretty much anywhere else in BC. Kelowna would be killing it in IT if we were offering pay rates within a few percent of Vancouver rates. I've seen far too many tech and engineering people leave Kelowna for the greener pastures of Vancouver.

so you feel people are going to Vancouver for pay rates roughly 25% higher and the cost of living is at least that much higher or more? this jobs pay scale seems about right then does it not?

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby LANDM » Nov 23rd, 2017, 7:02 am

zensiert wrote:I have just come across one of the most blatantly crazy ads that I have seen in a long time:

SQL Programmer / Database Developer

Knew Realty Research Inc. is your local, Okanagan residential real estate expert.....

.....
Remuneration:
  • $18 to $20 per hour (experience dependent) during initial contract period.

If interested please e-mail your resume or CV to *removed*


And my jaw was left on the floor in sheer astonishment. Is this the mentality of the current crop of Kelowna employers?

Let’s look at those requirements again:

  • Experience in Data Modeling and Database design
  • Ability to understand and/or construct data warehouses
  • Strong background in SQL Server Integration Services (SSIS) for ETL and SQL Server Reporting Services (SSRS) for report generation
  • Comprehensive grasp of data visualization methods
  • Experience in performance tuning complex queries, procedure and indexing strategies

For anyone not in the IT industry, and not a DBA (Database Administrator), these are advanced skills that are only mastered after many years of study and work. Plus, they are asking for someone with a full degree, with four years of study behind them. This is like asking a Certified Accountant or a junior Lawyer to do work at $18-20/hr. Don’t we all wish we could ask that? To have our finances balanced and our legal problems solved for a pittance?

The problem is that anyone even halfway experienced in those technologies would be commanding at least $50/hr in any city like Kelowna. And an expert? One who can hit the ground running and really give them a good bang for their buck? Yeah, upwards of $80-100/hr.

A quick look at the company tells us that this is no shoestring startup -- they are in a swanky suite near the top of the Dolphins building, which probably costs them a mint. So money is not a problem. Their website is not cheap - the developer is top shelf, and charges accordingly (I am in the industry, I know them). It is clear that cash flow is not a primary problem for them.

So why nickel and dime their foundation? Why put the squeeze on their vital infrastructure? Because it puts more into the pockets of the top people, the ones that invest and direct but probably haven’t ever done a day of grunt work in that subject. Wages like the one above, for the skills they are looking for, tells me only one thing: that they are not interested in maximizing the quality of their business, or hiring the best people, or taking care of their employees at a fair rate. They are only concerned about their ego and wealth extraction.

And that is what probably makes them a card-carrying member of the parasite class.

Rant over.


Wow...you are waaaayy too easily impressed (fooled). And your own research skills are.....limited.
Firstly, the Dolphins is a residential building. They are not there.
They are in a crappy little space in Landmark 1 that, literally, anyone with a few hundred bucks can rent and provide an address to impress someone like you. It is neither swanky nor something that costs a mint. Other portions of this tiny space are currently available to rent presently. Google the address.

Secondly, look at the "about us" portion of their website. These are people who are not part of any "class" that you describe. They are three people who have combined to create a little startup that is, indeed, on a shoestring budget. Two former tutors (they are educated) who have received their real estate licenses this year, and a current realtor who probably does very little business.

They are asking for anyone with some skills for a three month contract. "Work experience an asset". So, they will take a person fresh out of school. Just like them. And, they are not looking for someone with a university degree. They clearly say "diploma". That is very different and can be received after a short courseload.

I have no idea why you find this rant-worthy......they are a penniless startup who are trying to find a penniless computer programmer dude/dude-ess and you are viewing them, incorrectly, as the monied class of business titans taking advantage of the local serfs.

I guess they did their job.....they fooled you.

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Verum » Nov 23rd, 2017, 8:33 am

LTD wrote:
Verum wrote:I've noticed similar with other employers, offering around 75% of the pay one would expect pretty much anywhere else in BC. Kelowna would be killing it in IT if we were offering pay rates within a few percent of Vancouver rates. I've seen far too many tech and engineering people leave Kelowna for the greener pastures of Vancouver.

so you feel people are going to Vancouver for pay rates roughly 25% higher and the cost of living is at least that much higher or more? this jobs pay scale seems about right then does it not?

Actually, if Kelowna rates are 75% of Vancouver rates, then Vancouver pays 33% more, not 25% more. Not an insignificant difference.

Back to it, yes, the actual basic cost of living difference between the two is around 25% (see link below), but after you meet cost of living expenses, your disposable income will be significantly higher in Vancouver. You'll be able to save more too. As much as I wouldn't want to live in Vancouver, I am not ignorant of the fact that it is very attractive, especially when wages are significantly higher, opportunities are easier to find, etc.

I don't like Vancouver, but if I liked it as much as I like Kelowna, it would be a far smarter place for me to move to.

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/kelowna/vancouver
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby jsytnick » Nov 23rd, 2017, 9:04 am

I see you posted this on reddit as well. I think you have some confusion on rates of pay. Your 50-100/hr might be correct for a contract employee, but the hours will not be full time/long term, thus the rate is higher. For year round employment, the hourly is always going to be less than on a contract basis, this goes for almost any industry. I'd love you to show me where this job exists as a 50-100/hr full time job in Kelowna or similar sized cities. It doesn't. Sorry to burst your bubble sunshine, but the market dictates the rate of pay, not the piece of paper you hold.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby HP » Nov 23rd, 2017, 9:29 am

Ummmmm - you did read the part of that wage being only for the 3 month initial contract?

What’s the wage after the probation period is up?


Probably zero. They'll hire as a contractor, make no source deductions, provide no benefits, and terminate at the end of three months. The numbers conveniently add up to about $7500. When I see things like this I jump to the conclusion that a prospective employer came up with a budget of $X to get a job done. Really the smart thing would be to advertise as a contract for deliverables. Somebody with talent will code it up in a month and dance out of there with a great paycheque.
Somebody new or junior will take three months and get a crap hourly rate but some experience to boot.

What I read in that ad is an employer who has absolutely zero idea about tech but figures they have this amazing idea and found a few dollars to get it off the ground.

I have no idea why you find this rant-worthy......they are a penniless startup who are trying to find a penniless computer programmer dude/dude-ess and you are viewing them, incorrectly, as the monied class of business titans taking advantage of the local serfs.


But let's be serious for a second: the rate is pretty low based on the terms and with the stated requirement for domain expertise (i.e. "strong background", "comprehensive", "Experience tuning large queries"... does not lead me to believe they're looking for a kid who just graduated from college). I don't care if they're a starving startup.

For example, a Data Warehouse Architect (Ability to understand and/or construct data warehouses) wage, nationally, can probably expect between $75k and $110k per year.

An MSSQL DBA (Strong background in SQL Server Integration Services ... ) would probably draw around $70k/year with little variability.

A SQL Developer (Experience in performance tuning complex queries) should be able to expect around $60k/year on the low end and it goes up from there.

The wage is probably about right for an intern Data Modeller but if I were an intern I would be expecting there to be somebody senior on the job to mentor me and I get the distinct impression that won't be happening.

One last thought, other employers see those ads and use them to benchmark their own wages. Even if the advertiser isn't able to hire at that rate, here in the Okanagan tech sector with the number of 'tech companies' suffering chronic traumatic cranio-proctological inversion disorder when it comes to the value of labor I see this weird groupthink that an ad for a silly rate somehow justifies other silly rates. You pay what you can afford - I get that - but I've also said that any time your business plan is based on "free" something (labour, hardware, network, office space, water, whatever)... you have a serious, serious problem and when you offer considerably below what's reasonable, you're effectively requesting "free".

I'd love you to show me where this job exists as a 50-100/hr full time job in Kelowna or similar sized cities


Just saw this ... threw in a quick edit instead of adding a new post. What does that matter? This is a digital economy. I could do this job from anywhere I have an Internet connection.

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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby kgcayenne » Nov 23rd, 2017, 10:00 am

$1,700 Rent & Utilities for a non-dive
$5,700 What monthly earnings should be to pay that rent (1/3 of gross earnings for housing)
$33 /hour is what the household should make
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Even Steven » Nov 23rd, 2017, 10:45 am

zensiert wrote:This is a blatant attempt to devalue skilled labour in the interests of maximizing investor/owner payout.


Once again, are you forced to take this job? No, you're not.

Is this wage being forced upon you? No, it's not.

Do you have freedom to apply somewhere else and get $200,000/year you think you deserve? Yes, you do.

Just don't apply if it's not for you. It might be for somebody. It might be a negotiating tactic. It might be an ad written by somebody who read things on Internet and doesn't even know what these skills entail to - very common with startups where people have an idea, but don't know what the tech part will look like.

But once again - if it helps somebody - that's great. If nobody applies - they'll up the rate or just outsource the whole project overseas, there's lots of freelance workers available who may be able to do it for that budget.

Stop looking for reasons to be insulted. Jeez.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Even Steven » Nov 23rd, 2017, 10:52 am

LANDM wrote:I have no idea why you find this rant-worthy......they are a penniless startup who are trying to find a penniless computer programmer dude/dude-ess and you are viewing them, incorrectly, as the monied class of business titans taking advantage of the local serfs.


Exactly.

If it was me, I'd be approaching them and telling them that I can do this project in X weeks, here's the list of deliverables, here's what I want to get paid. May be it's not cash upfront, may be it's equity position in the startup (probably not given it's not Facebook, it's just another RE-themed startup doomed to fail). Draw up a contract, establish the scope, put a price on it, and I'll get it done on my time schedule without worrying about per hour rate. Use overseeas codemonkeyes for grunt work.

That's what smart people would do. Dumb people would complain about the hour rate and sunshine tax.

The whole per-hour work valuation for one-off projects is so archaic by now. Especially in tech field.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby youjustcomplain » Nov 23rd, 2017, 11:42 am

I would expect, based on the requested qualifications for the SQL DBA, that this person would be compensated for between $30/hr on the VERY VERY low end, to $45/hr on the higher end. Now, they want someone for just a few months to start. Well, then someone who is skilled and qualified should be compensated more, not less, because of the short term aspect.

I understand, new company, new startup, not a lot of cash. Hard to pay for a good DBA, but if they want any chance for their database to be built well, they will need to pay for it. $18-$20 will get you nothing, or very poor work.

Nothing offensive about the ad though. If you're a DBA and feel that the compensation is too low, then don't go for it. No good DBA will go for it at that rate.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby kgcayenne » Nov 23rd, 2017, 12:02 pm

I checked out their site, and I'd like to see if the realtor on their staff will take a commission cut of 45%.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby zensiert » Nov 23rd, 2017, 2:51 pm

Even Steven wrote:Once again, are you forced to take this job? No, you're not.

Is this wage being forced upon you? No, it's not.

Do you have freedom to apply somewhere else and get $200,000/year you think you deserve? Yes, you do.


Spoken like a true Ayn Rand conservative who has never been poor or in a financially tight spot. Ignorance really must be bliss.

There are many people who cannot afford to move, who don’t own a reliable vehicle that can go long distances or tow a U-Haul, who can’t just wait around until a better job comes around or move to a region with better jobs. And even then, the risk can be far too great - you might already have a secure place where you currently are, and pulling up roots could easily leave you homeless when you cannot afford or find a place in your destination. Or you might not be able to pull up roots at all in the first place - that family and obligations outside of employment keep you locked to your current region.

In short, there are a plethora of reasons why an esoteric or uncommon skill set might make you forced to take a job well beneath the normal pay rate for that skill set, in order to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. And the skills listed are quite uncommon - I doubt more than fifty people in Kelowna would fit that job description’s bill, and they are all making several times the amount offered. Conversely, positions for this type of a position only opens up very infrequently; I honestly can’t remember the last time I saw a job position for MSSQL data warehousing in Kelowna, much less one asking for those specific riders.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Retrosnap » Nov 23rd, 2017, 3:24 pm

This is an 80K per year salaried job.

PM me if you want to know why.

Good luck to the recruiter.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby Even Steven » Nov 23rd, 2017, 3:39 pm

zensiert wrote:Spoken like a true Ayn Rand conservative

Who?
who has never been poor or in a financially tight spot.

This is called "assuming" and if you don't want to look like an idiot, I wouldn't do it.

There are many people who cannot afford to move, who don’t own a reliable vehicle that can go long distances or tow a U-Haul

This might be true for not skilled labour and people with no high school diploma. May be then I'd buy this argument even then it's weak. But we're talking about educated professionals who never have to look for a job more than a week. They're not forced into hunger and slavery by evil employers. They work freelance, they work remotely, they work on projects from other countries over something called Internet, may be you've heard of it. They can pick and choose, and if they choose not to apply - they don't. Easy as pie.

....and they are all making several times the amount offered.

So everybody is happy. And nobody will apply to this job. What's the reason for the panties in a bunch?
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby zensiert » Nov 23rd, 2017, 3:55 pm

Even Steven wrote:So everybody is happy. And nobody will apply to this job. What's the reason for the panties in a bunch?


Go and read HP’s second-to-last paragraph. It sums it up rather nicely.

Even Steven wrote:This might be true for not skilled labour and people with no high school diploma. May be then I'd buy this argument even then it's weak. But we're talking about educated professionals who never have to look for a job more than a week. They're not forced into hunger and slavery by evil employers. They work freelance, they work remotely, they work on projects from other countries over something called Internet, may be you've heard of it. They can pick and choose, and if they choose not to apply - they don't. Easy as pie.


I have seen my fair share of technology professionals caught between a rock and a hard place due to misfortunes of various kinds. It happens just as easily to them as it does to any other middle-class worker. But for many of us, it takes a hell of a lot longer than a week to find a job - even more so if you have specialized skills. The search could easily go on for months unless your skill set just happen to be smack in the middle of the latest tech craze du jour. Myself? I specialize in C# in leveraging MSSQL databases. Do you know what proportion of tech jobs call for that in Kelowna? Less than 1%. For me, finding a new job would take the better part of a year unless I am willing to relocate (which I cannot due to family). Hell, there are jobs out there right now that I would be sorely tempted to give my left ovary to get into, but I can’t because it involves relocation. And many employers are still not willing to do that whole remote thing - many to most want you on-site, even if you are a programmer.
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Re: Rant: A prime example of the Sunshine Tax.

Postby kgcayenne » Nov 23rd, 2017, 4:33 pm

Retrosnap wrote:This is an 80K per year salaried job.

PM me if you want to know why.

Good luck to the recruiter.


My guess was correct then, they're offering about half... if that.
kgcayenne wrote:I checked out their site, and I'd like to see if the realtor on their staff will take a commission cut of 45%.
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