Decriminalization of All Drugs

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Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby AlienSoldier » Jan 17th, 2018, 6:49 am

Interesting poll today. It's amazing to see that over 25% of people agree with decriminalization of drugs and 50% who don't.

I personally believe we should decriminalize drugs, but control them through pharmacies, or other methods such as a control board, etc. We know that people will do drugs, we know that many gangs and cartels make large amounts of money off of drugs which then is an expense on society due to policing, etc. By selling drugs directly to consumers, we can control the side effects, fund research into rehabilitation and maybe also into infrastructure and create new jobs. This is similar to what we are seeing with the marijuana industry right now. Its been a boon for job creation and the Canadian economy.

I also see the flip side where we are now making it easier for people to get drugs and normalizing their use. Yet, I can't help but think how easy it is for 12 year old kids to walk across the street to a dealer to get there fix, no regulations, no nothing. At least if that was at a legitimate business we would have checks and balances such as at liquor stores.

Please, lets keep this topic to the pro's and con's of decriminalizing drugs. This is not about people who are addicted to drugs.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Queen K » Jan 17th, 2018, 7:23 am

To have a product which is in demand, a company (cartel, gang) needs customers (addicts) coming back for more.
Marketing strageties are exactly the same for all products: figure out what makes the customer buy the product.

Illegal or legal.

It's all about people demanding your products.
And your products being in demand.
And brand recognition and loyalty.

No matter what.
It must be nice to live in an Ivory Tower, where everyone else makes mistakes. I have no idea what an ivory tower looks like.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby AlienSoldier » Jan 17th, 2018, 7:36 am

Queen K wrote:To have a product which is in demand, a company (cartel, gang) needs customers (addicts) coming back for more.
Marketing strageties are exactly the same for all products: figure out what makes the customer buy the product.

Illegal or legal.

It's all about people demanding your products.
And your products being in demand.
And brand recognition and loyalty.

No matter what.


Agreed, but current policies which ban drugs only lead to higher prices, which actually reduces risk for gangs and cartels as it provides a buffer for the number of shipments which can be destroyed in freight. By creating a secondary market that is legal, it would be similar to weed, where it can be controlled and supplied at a quality and level of safety that it currently is not. It might help reduce the current demand for EMS, Fire reporting to incidents.
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Ka-El » Jan 17th, 2018, 9:04 am

Just some food for thought. There was a time when marijuana was not illegal, and you could buy both cocaine and heroin over the counter at your favourite corner drug store. Had that not changed, we likely would have never heard of Pablo Escobar, the Medellin Cartel or El Chapo. Cocaine may well have never become a party drug, tens of thousands of lives would not have been destroyed in drug wars in all involved countries, and literally tens of billions in tax dollars could have been diverted to more useful efforts (health, education, etc.). It could also be argued we would have less addicts. Now we have an incredible mess to deal with. The only thing we know for sure will not work, is doing more of the same thing that created the problem in the first place. The conservative mantra of “if it’s broke, don’t fix it” will no longer serve the best interests of society.
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby CapitalB » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:07 pm

Ka-El wrote:Just some food for thought. There was a time when marijuana was not illegal, and you could buy both cocaine and heroin over the counter at your favourite corner drug store. Had that not changed, we likely would have never heard of Pablo Escobar, the Medellin Cartel or El Chapo. Cocaine may well have never become a party drug, tens of thousands of lives would not have been destroyed in drug wars in all involved countries, and literally tens of billions in tax dollars could have been diverted to more useful efforts (health, education, etc.). It could also be argued we would have less addicts. Now we have an incredible mess to deal with. The only thing we know for sure will not work, is doing more of the same thing that created the problem in the first place. The conservative mantra of “if it’s broke, don’t fix it” will no longer serve the best interests of society.


Unfortunately the opponents of this kind of policy are all about morals and punishment on top of their revisionist version of history. It always seems like they think all drug users are irredeemable and should be persecuted until they die. Morals.
So much of the violent push-back on everything progressive and reformist comes down to: I can see the future, and in this future I am not the centre of the universe and master of all that I survey, therefore this future must be resisted at all costs.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Queen K » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:28 pm

Ka-El wrote:Just some food for thought. There was a time when marijuana was not illegal, and you could buy both cocaine and heroin over the counter at your favourite corner drug store. Had that not changed, we likely would have never heard of Pablo Escobar, the Medellin Cartel or El Chapo. Cocaine may well have never become a party drug, tens of thousands of lives would not have been destroyed in drug wars in all involved countries, and literally tens of billions in tax dollars could have been diverted to more useful efforts (health, education, etc.). It could also be argued we would have less addicts. Now we have an incredible mess to deal with. The only thing we know for sure will not work, is doing more of the same thing that created the problem in the first place. The conservative mantra of “if it’s broke, don’t fix it” will no longer serve the best interests of society.


I don't even disagree with this.

I would like to know how widespread use and addiction was before those in power felt it had to be abolished from public reach.

Note how often coke shows up in Peaky Blinders?
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby CapitalB » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:37 pm

Queen K wrote:
Ka-El wrote:Just some food for thought. There was a time when marijuana was not illegal, and you could buy both cocaine and heroin over the counter at your favourite corner drug store. Had that not changed, we likely would have never heard of Pablo Escobar, the Medellin Cartel or El Chapo. Cocaine may well have never become a party drug, tens of thousands of lives would not have been destroyed in drug wars in all involved countries, and literally tens of billions in tax dollars could have been diverted to more useful efforts (health, education, etc.). It could also be argued we would have less addicts. Now we have an incredible mess to deal with. The only thing we know for sure will not work, is doing more of the same thing that created the problem in the first place. The conservative mantra of “if it’s broke, don’t fix it” will no longer serve the best interests of society.


I don't even disagree with this.

I would like to know how widespread use and addiction was before those in power felt it had to be abolished from public reach.

Note how often coke shows up in Peaky Blinders?


That would be interesting but pretty hard to actually ferret out. I think there wasn't really an idea of substance abuse back then, casual use of alcohol, opium, early cocaine etc seems pretty common. However the knowledge of addiction and how these things react in the brain was basically non existent for a long time. I think the first real acknowledgment of addiction from a bureaucratic point was when china tried to kick out british opium traders because the opium was ruining their society. Its hard to really say we've progressed a lot from that point though, we have wide knowledge of the destructive effects of these drugs but a lot of people still use / abuse (theres a fine line) them knowing full well that it'll destroy their lives. I don't think the legality of substances will change that fact at all. Organized crime however would suffer hard from legalization.
So much of the violent push-back on everything progressive and reformist comes down to: I can see the future, and in this future I am not the centre of the universe and master of all that I survey, therefore this future must be resisted at all costs.
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Queen K » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Organized crime would suffer, at first. But then, they could also legitimize themselves by taking control of the legal side of things too.

Or Organized crime would simply find new streams of revenue, extortion, blackmail, all the evil ways to ruin lives anyway.

I say round them up. No more civil liberties for gangs.
It must be nice to live in an Ivory Tower, where everyone else makes mistakes. I have no idea what an ivory tower looks like.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby CapitalB » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:47 pm

Queen K wrote:Organized crime would suffer, at first. But then, they could also legitimize themselves by taking control of the legal side of things too.

Or Organized crime would simply find new streams of revenue, extortion, blackmail, all the evil ways to ruin lives anyway.

I say round them up. No more civil liberties for gangs.


But then by definition they wouldn't be criminals anymore. They would be reformed into productive members of society, which is basically the mission statement of the prison system.

I really don't think they would have leverage for those things after they lost all their drug power. I mean they could go full CIA like you describe but I think most of them are just looking for easy money (despite all the work and risk involved) and would find something a bit easier to do. Sure there's always going to be a disgusting criminal underbelly of society because there will always be people looking for some horrible fantasy to full fill.

Shouldn't our goal be to turn as many people as possible into constructive members of society though?
So much of the violent push-back on everything progressive and reformist comes down to: I can see the future, and in this future I am not the centre of the universe and master of all that I survey, therefore this future must be resisted at all costs.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby AlienSoldier » Jan 17th, 2018, 12:55 pm

Great conversation so far! *pats himself on the back*

I think if we want to see before and after affects of legalization we have only to turn to Portugal which legalized many hard drugs. Before and after comparisons should be easy since this did not happen to long ago.

Also, I understand Queen's point of view, after all look at how many alcohol companies pride themselves on their history of bootlegging (those were gangs and drug dealers at one point). But through time and dilution those facets slowly disappeared or were concentrated into a select few who realized they need to change to keep their power. This is probably what will happen to the marijuana industry as well.

With harder drugs I feel this will be more difficult to do. Many of them are in pill form or require more pharmaceutical like companies to create. That initial investment and knowledge is not cheap and competition between current pharmaceutical companies and dealers trying to break in will surely see the pharama's win. I'm not saying pharmaceutical companies aren't drug dealers themselves though. lol
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Silverstarqueen » Jan 17th, 2018, 2:06 pm

I am not sure our physicians are equipped with the training or knowledge to prescribe addictive drugs without screwing up a lot of people. Their record on opioid prescriptions (presumably for pain relieve) has created a lot of problems. So at the very least this would have to be very carefully regulated and reassessed after a period of time, perhaps with pilot projects first. Yes, Portugal seems to have had a positive result from it, but Portugal is not us. Perhaps bringing in some of their experts to direct the pilot programs would help. I don't have a lot of faith in our own medical experts to know how to go about this. What can go wrong, eh? Could we have patients coming back in a few years suing our medical system because their addiction was mishandled? RIght now, if they screw up or die from their addiction, the defense is, they were taking part in an illegal activity.
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby GordonH » Jan 17th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Okay Decriminalization of All Drugs, in doing so enable all employers access to random drug testing (includes alcohol). Do whatever you want on your own time, but be clean & ready for work on scheduled hours.

Potential/all employees must sign a waiver giving their employer the ability to have random tests done. As for the results, that will be up to each employers policies.
When you have to start compromising yourself and your morals for the people around you, it’s probably time to change the people around you.

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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby AlienSoldier » Jan 19th, 2018, 5:48 am

Regarding Doctors, it could be a simple wavier form which many surgeons use now in case of issues during surgery. Work place would be a bit more complex as we are seeing how legalization of marijuana is affecting the oil sands. However it is not an impossible task, it will just take time to sort out.

I know Jagmeet Singh is of the same impression, Trudeau is somewhere in the middle, its interesting to me how our society is moving forward. I am thinking as a conservative and would love the job creation and opportunity that could come out of this. Plus it would re less government and regulation than before.
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby Ka-El » Jan 19th, 2018, 7:36 am

Society is moving forward. Evolution, including social and political evolution is inevitable. The only question is how much pain and unnecessary costs will be endured due to conservative forces resisting the current of change - insisting their way will work, if only we just spend a "little bit more" money enforcing an unenforceable behavior. Don't worry though, we don't need to be spending so much money on health, education or infrastructure. Gotta get our priorities straight. Damn junkies!
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Re: Decriminalization of All Drugs

Postby the truth » Jan 29th, 2018, 1:16 pm

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#217423 hope the liberals stick with the decriminalization of all drugs next election, [icon_lol2.gif] no way in hell they win next time round
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