Stop Shaming Business Owners

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Omnitheo » Jan 25th, 2018, 1:10 pm

LTD wrote:I think its you whos out of touch with reality no skills no trade little to no previous work experience and you feel people should just start at a high wage, seriously? if your boss was shorting your check then youre an idiot for staying there, just because you struggled by staying at a *bleep* job everyone should get paid more thats not how it works .



Clearly you missed the part where I was looking for other jobs. Like mentioned in other posts, managers at the stores did everything they could to keep their employees (short of paying them more). They would give bad references to prevent employees from going elsewhere. They would also lead people along on a string promising raises and promotions “soon”. What do you suggest? I leave the job and live on welfare?

I’m not talking about a high wage. I’m talking about a reasonable wage, where I could afford a bed to sleep on. Bus passes. Food to eat. To not have to scramble to get OT or take a second job just so I could have a roof over my head to sleep under between work and school. I find it absolutely sickening how you think that the people spending nearly all their waking hours salving away to get you a burger in 60 seconds subjecting themselves to screaming and abuse from customers and managers alike, working through migraines in a hot crowded room full of a dozen things beeping and running back and forth between one hazard and another are “not working hard enough” or not deserving of enough pay to afford to rent a place with a bedroom for themselves. Or to afford nutritious food.

I’ll point out that at this time, many of my coworkers had various degrees. Some had years of experience in other jobs. Not everyone working here at min wage was a high school kid just trying to survive.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Verum » Jan 25th, 2018, 1:12 pm

kgcayenne wrote:You mean un-certified workers. Do not mistake the lack of post-secondary training for a lack of skill, knowledge, or worth.

True, for sure, but I've met so many people who think they are really good in an area, particularly computers, who really are just good for an amateur user, not for a professional, or worse, adequate in one tiny area, but not really good in general with computers. The last group end up getting hired and then are completely useless when they can't adapt to changing requirements. In the end, some appropriate level of qualification in computing or a related field is kind of a minimum to avoid this as it tends to guarantee that they have some minimum understanding of computers and aren't just a wannabe.

It's not the only field I've encountered it in, and I am sure that plenty of others encounter this in other fields. Most employers looks to qualifications, not because they are necessary to do the task but because people without them are too risky to employ and there are qualified people out there.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 2:32 pm

Verum wrote:I've met so many people who think they are really good in an area, particularly computers, who really are just good for an amateur user, not for a professional, or worse, adequate in one tiny area, but not really good in general with computers. The last group end up getting hired and then are completely useless when they can't adapt to changing requirements. In the end, some appropriate level of qualification in computing or a related field is kind of a minimum to avoid this as it tends to guarantee that they have some minimum understanding of computers and aren't just a wannabe.It's not the only field I've encountered it in, and I am sure that plenty of others encounter this in other fields. Most employers looks to qualifications, not because they are necessary to do the task but because people without them are too risky to employ and there are qualified people out there.


I do think we are touching on something here from this angle. There are employers that will absolutely hire non-papered individuals to avoid paying the appropriate wage. In a chain restaurant and a chain clothing store, I have seen regular customer service staff with no other training prepare payroll, and remittances for tax and payroll deductions. Good experience for the most part, but normally accounting techs do that. Both jobs were minimum wage-types.

The clothing store added HR demands and sales analysis requirements (5% above min wage and they sure wanted to make the manager and her assistant think they were bleeding for it too), and their operations (middle) managers were all trained from within (22% above min wage, long hours, but travel to the 15 stores she managed was included and spun as a benefit). Now, yes, it is valuable for a business organization to keep their employees moving up and through the company, but there were systemic problems as a result of the way the middle management was obtained. Middle management actually became a loss prevention issue by way of their bypassing the labour code and incurring losses through arbitrations from things such as wrongful dismissals, discrimination, harassment, and a $1.4M federal fine for pricing violations. That story may sound rather pointless to you, but it highlights that some companies prefer their personnel be underpaid and half-informed to fit in with their business model---until they get caught with their pants down and have to go belly-up.

I've heard an employer state: Get them without experience and train them your way & won't know to argue when you cheat a little.
Others say: Get them without experience so you are not dealing with someone else's bad habits (ie, the M.O. above).

Risky is relative. Some employers are totally okay with staff members messing around with the computer systems learning as they go (replacing consumer grade computers from BestBuy is cheaper than paying a real IT, just back up first right?). A number of employers are also totally okay with staff doing all the janitorial duties and equipment maintenance without any WHIMIS training. What is the going rate for janitorial contractors these days, anyway?
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Verum » Jan 25th, 2018, 3:52 pm

dirtybiker wrote:
kgcayenne wrote:You mean un-certified workers. Do not mistake the lack of post-secondary training for a lack of skill, knowledge, or worth.


Yes, when the book smart, educated folks feet hit the floor, they still need the
training from their non-diploma counterparts to show real word applications.

True, but I have found that book smart people tend to learn quicker and better. They can also extrapolate better and adapt. While this is only my experience, it is supported by evidence that people with qualifications tend to have an easier time finding work in related but different fields than those who are just experienced in the one.

Basically, there is no substitute for experience, but similarly there is no substitute for knowing how to learn from theory and apply it in a practical setting.

Having experienced a sort of reverse snobbery where people denigrate qualifications and book smarts, I find it sad because it shows a resistance to learning new things and bettering oneself. Just because someone has gone through the process of getting a quality qualification doesn't make them better at a task than another person who didn't, but it does make them better than they themselves would have been before.

Again, this is largely my experience and only from a few fields, mostly technology related.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Jonrox » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:07 pm

If you don't want to earn minimum wage, don't be a part of that huge unskilled labour pool. Minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage nor does it need to be.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby alanjh595 » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:10 pm

if you don't want to work for minimum wage......don't. There are 10 people behind you that would love to have that job.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby dirtybiker » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:29 pm

A good education and higher learning is essential, much more-so now than when
I was young.

Quit School in Gr, 10 as a need for money trumped the education system.

Opened my first business at the ripe old age of 18.
It would have flourished better if I had either more book smarts or
hired out to some one with more business savvy, to take
care of the mountains of paper-work, and accounts in and out. Nightmare at best...
All I had was hands on top quality service and result.
Closed up shop and sold the name by my 22nd B-day.

Went into business for myself again, at 35 with a better business plan.
After 5 yrs. Sold all holdings and contracts for a tidy profit.

Back to being an Employee, Manager, etc. etc. whatever it takes to make the
Company succeed.

Compensation could be more, better.
It's rare for a person to say otherwise.
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby rustled » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:31 pm

It occurs to no one has come to this thread with a personal story of having been treated unfairly for a great length of time in a job position they were unable to leave.

Omnitheo told us about a work situation where he felt the employer was unfairly taking advantage, and yet Omni isn't there today. If others he worked with have chosen to stay, isn't that their choice? How would increasing the minimum wage for all employers have forced this lousy employer to stop cheating his employees out of hours, stringing his employees along, or giving them references? It seems to me most people can, and do, overcome these problems by moving on, just as Omni has done.

Most of us seem able to recognize the relationship between employers and employees is varied, and the needs of employers and employees is varied, and that we as autonomous beings are generally able to achieve more if we are willing to put in some kind of effort to that end.

Although some posters tell us there are significant numbers of workers, primarily middle aged women, who are trapped, victims of unscrupulous business owners who are getting rich by taking advantage of their employees, I have to wonder how many of these middle-aged women would be annoyed at having others perceive them as "victims" who are "trapped" and "incapable of doing better" simply because of where they work and the job they do.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Verum » Jan 25th, 2018, 4:36 pm

kgcayenne wrote:...
Risky is relative. Some employers are totally okay with staff members messing around with the computer systems learning as they go (replacing consumer grade computers from BestBuy is cheaper than paying a real IT, just back up first right?). A number of employers are also totally okay with staff doing all the janitorial duties and equipment maintenance without any WHIMIS training. What is the going rate for janitorial contractors these days, anyway?

Yes, just back it up, make sure the backup is good and that you have a recovery plan, including if the hardware is different, etc. The fact is that weak staff don't even know how little they know and that can be dangerous, but if you can put them in a play area where they can't do real harm, that can work.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby LTD » Jan 25th, 2018, 6:10 pm

kgcayenne wrote:
LTD wrote: a high wage. . .


What is your definition of a high wage?

I’m no more capable or skilled in my job than I was before the training I took to ‘qualify’ for it. The difference between the two was the $20,000/year it cost me to sit on my *bleep* in a classroom to reaffirm my capabilities and subsequently buy the little piece of paper that says I can do it at a higher rate of pay.

Not every one has, can borrow, or can receive grants to obtain a little piece of paper that tells the world that they have satisfied the criteria and now fit neatly into the little itty-bitty box that defines an occupation.

so you had to get training for your job, key word there is "training" the difference between skilled and unskilled lol you people make me laugh how about we pay all of these unskilled people 25 bucks an hour to pick their nose and flip burgers sounds like a logical plan lol
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Okay, so $25 is your definition of high wage.

Who's asking for minimum wage to be bumped to $25?
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby LTD » Jan 25th, 2018, 7:21 pm

kgcayenne wrote:Okay, so $25 is your definition of high wage.

Who's asking for minimum wage to be bumped to $25?

its not a high wage just a number I threw out heck lets make it 30 or 35 the rich small business owner can afford it right, then I wouldn't have to work so hard I could fold sweaters at wallmart and get paid like a tradesman :up:
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 7:50 pm

Your hyperboles and random number ‘throwing’ are non-essential to this discussion. It’s $11.35/hr to flip burgers. What should it be?
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Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Even Steven » Jan 25th, 2018, 8:13 pm

It should be whatever market dictates it to be. It should not be mandated. And since virtually no business pays minimum wage these days, it's already working this way.

You offer a job at $11/hour - very few people respond
You offer a job at $11.50/hour - some people respond but all useless
You offer a job at $12/hour - quite a few people respond, and even a few decent workers
You offer a job at $12.50/hour and throw in some benefits - lots of decent people respond. You pick a few. Congratulations, you've found what the market value of this job is (numbers are purely made up).

As an alternative, you can stop at the previous step but by saving some money you buy yourself some extra headache with higher turnover.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby GordonH » Jan 25th, 2018, 8:51 pm

Even Steven wrote:It should be whatever market dictates it to be. It should not be mandated. And since virtually no business pays minimum wage these days, it's already working this way.
Of course employer could do this.
You offer a job at $11/hour - very few people respond fulltime 40hrs per/week
You offer a job at $11.50/hour - some people respond but all uselessmaximum 38 hrs per/week
You offer a job at $12/hour - quite a few people respond, and even a few decent workersmaximum 35hrs per/week
You offer a job at $12.50/hour and throw in some benefits - lots of decent people respond. You pick a few. Congratulations, you've found what the market value of this job is (numbers are purely made up).maximum under 30hrs per/week

As an alternative, you can stop at the previous step but by saving some money you buy yourself some extra headache with higher turnover.

Since part time employees usually don't get benefits, are no better off. Large amount of retail/service industry jobs are not fulltime hours. Reason employer then does not have to worry about benefits.
When you have to start compromising yourself and your morals for the people around you, it’s probably time to change the people around you.

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