Stop Shaming Business Owners

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Dizzy1 » Jan 25th, 2018, 5:09 am

TJ05 wrote:I agree that minimum wage needs to increase for people working in jobs such as fast food places etc. Just because someone works at one of these jobs, doesn't make them less deserving of a decent wage. If they are working hard for your business, pay them!

Ummm, actually it does. Minimum effort equals minimum wage. Want more money - make the effort and sacrifices and take the risks that everyone else has :up:
Nobody wants to hear your opinion. They just want to hear their own opinion coming out of your mouth.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Dizzy1 » Jan 25th, 2018, 5:12 am

HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I get why people keep giving these blanket answers that everyone can better himself or herself through some courses and gumption, but so many people still fall through the cracks.

Thats their problem if they fall through the cracks. The solution? Fill those cracks themselves - if everyone else can do it, so can they - otherwise its just another excuse :up:
Nobody wants to hear your opinion. They just want to hear their own opinion coming out of your mouth.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Dizzy1 » Jan 25th, 2018, 5:15 am

kgcayenne wrote:What about people whose bodies have been damaged significantly by RMI while employed at that higher wage job who can now only get low-paid work? What about people who have debilitating illness and don’t qualify for PWD? I know a bunch of you think PWD designation is handed out like candy, but I assure you, the tick boxes are seemingly innumerable and there are a lot of people with invisible disabilities that cannot get help. Are YOU willing to employ a person with a brain injury and deal with the personality difficulties and cognitive deficits? Most of the time, they bounce around from job to job—minimum wage jobs.

Why are they restricted to a low paying job? Is there a law that doesn't allow them to better their career? If they have the ability to work at a low paying job, then they have the same ability to further themselves in a positive way. Happens every day with people with disabilities.

Now, if one has a disability that doesn't allow people to work - then thats something completely different and would require a discussion on disability supplements.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 8:35 am

Interesting article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/minimum ... -1.4501940

Ontario's recent minimum wage increase is controversial, partly because it's unclear what exactly a modern minimum wage is supposed to achieve.

When the measure was introduced in Canada about a century ago, the purpose was to protect women and children from being exploited. In 1918, the first minimum wage rates were established in Manitoba, followed by Saskatchewan and British Columbia.
"Women by and large were cheap labour," according to Laurel MacDowell, a labour historian in Toronto.
As of 2016, women still made up the majority of minimum wage workers in Canada. According to Statistics Canada, more than 600,000 women earned minimum wage, 40 per cent more than the number of men who did.
For the women who first received minimum wage, MacDowell says, it wasn't intended to provide enough income to fully support themselves or dependants — what is now referred to as a living wage.

In 1914, Henry Ford at the Ford Motor Company doubled workers' pay to $5 per day.

"He was going to pay his workers enough money that at some point they could afford to own a Ford," said MacDowell.
"That notion that it's not necessarily good business just to drive people into the ground, that if they have a pretty good wage that they can then participate in society."

Governments' original goal of protecting women and children has evolved, but the current purpose of a minimum wage is still unclear. Today's minimum wages are often criticized for not providing workers with enough to support themselves.
"The really vexatious part about minimum wage is we don't know what it's supposed to be for," explained Armine Yalnizyan, a Toronto-based economist.


Yes, yes it is vexing. Society is fractured more and more, families do not stay together like they used to, and when they did, it was no big deal that mom went back to work for minimum wage. It was no big deal that the teenager of the house earned minimum wage on the weekends. It was a rite of passage to work part time while being a university student. Sadly, education costs more than it ever has, as does food and shelter, and single parenting is incredibly difficult.

It would be so easy to brag about my own journey to escape being min-waged to death, but I’m not willing to overlook the struggles of others because I can’t possibly know the half of it.
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Omnitheo » Jan 25th, 2018, 8:36 am

Minimum wage does not equal minimum effort. The jobs at the bottom that paid closer to min wage required far more effort and sacrifice on the employees part than many of the jobs I’ve had since.

I don’t get why people think it’s right for “starter jobs” to not pay fairly? To not pay enough to sustain someone to live on. In other threads you people complain about how kids live with their parents into their 20’s now, I wonder why? You complain about people requiring assistance from the government. I wonder why?

People can and do fall through the cracks. In fact during the 2 and a half years I was working full time at a min wage job, I was trying to go to high school and trying to live on my own (thanks to the government of the time, my foster care ended prematurely, so I was slumming it on friends couches at 17) for several years while I worked there, I was paid very little, despite having manager level responsibilities. I was also having to live off the food bank. My pay checks would be constantly shorted, and the boss would always say “oh we’ll fix it on your next pay check” causing a struggle and having to try to borrow money from people to afford my 3-way rent in a 1 bedroom apartment.

You think I wasn’t looking for other jobs either? I went from a 4.0 GPA in grade 10 to dropping out of classes in grades 11 and 12 because I had no time to do homework, instead working 5pm-2am every night.

But oh, I just wasn’t working hard enough? It’s completely fair because it’s a starter job. I didn’t deserve to afford food or rent because “I’m not putting in enough effort” well screw you. None of you have a clue the circumstances people are in, or how their lives are affected by working over full time but unable to afford the necessities of life. You are so out of touch with reality it’s disgusting.
"The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all Canadians, every one of us, even when it is uncomfortable."
- Justin Trudeau

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby LTD » Jan 25th, 2018, 9:25 am

I think its you whos out of touch with reality no skills no trade little to no previous work experience and you feel people should just start at a high wage, seriously? if your boss was shorting your check then youre an idiot for staying there, just because you struggled by staying at a *bleep* job everyone should get paid more thats not how it works .

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 9:46 am

LTD wrote: a high wage. . .


What is your definition of a high wage?

I’m no more capable or skilled in my job than I was before the training I took to ‘qualify’ for it. The difference between the two was the $20,000/year it cost me to sit on my *bleep* in a classroom to reaffirm my capabilities and subsequently buy the little piece of paper that says I can do it at a higher rate of pay.

Not every one has, can borrow, or can receive grants to obtain a little piece of paper that tells the world that they have satisfied the criteria and now fit neatly into the little itty-bitty box that defines an occupation.
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby rustled » Jan 25th, 2018, 10:03 am

Omnitheo wrote:Minimum wage does not equal minimum effort. The jobs at the bottom that paid closer to min wage required far more effort and sacrifice on the employees part than many of the jobs I’ve had since.

I don’t get why people think it’s right for “starter jobs” to not pay fairly? To not pay enough to sustain someone to live on. In other threads you people complain about how kids live with their parents into their 20’s now, I wonder why? You complain about people requiring assistance from the government. I wonder why?

People can and do fall through the cracks. In fact during the 2 and a half years I was working full time at a min wage job, I was trying to go to high school and trying to live on my own (thanks to the government of the time, my foster care ended prematurely, so I was slumming it on friends couches at 17) for several years while I worked there, I was paid very little, despite having manager level responsibilities. I was also having to live off the food bank. My pay checks would be constantly shorted, and the boss would always say “oh we’ll fix it on your next pay check” causing a struggle and having to try to borrow money from people to afford my 3-way rent in a 1 bedroom apartment.

You think I wasn’t looking for other jobs either? I went from a 4.0 GPA in grade 10 to dropping out of classes in grades 11 and 12 because I had no time to do homework, instead working 5pm-2am every night.

But oh, I just wasn’t working hard enough? It’s completely fair because it’s a starter job. I didn’t deserve to afford food or rent because “I’m not putting in enough effort” well screw you. None of you have a clue the circumstances people are in, or how their lives are affected by working over full time but unable to afford the necessities of life. You are so out of touch with reality it’s disgusting.

This explains why you see minimum wage and living wage issues through such a singular lens. It's the lens of your own experience.

You shouldn't have had to go through what you went through to get to where you are today, and it's only natural this speaks more deeply to you than anyone else's experience. I expect it's why many of you here believe what you do, and seem utterly indifferent to those who do need a job but do not require a living wage.

From your post, I gather you're about the same age as my son, who graduated at a time when there were very limited job opportunities. Employers naturally favoured those with the most maturity, the most experience who would require the least training. It was tough to get a job, and tough to move up. Currently, compared to then, it's relatively easy for people to jump jobs they're not happy with.

So I find it truly interesting that you are not only promoting a policy that will have that same limiting effect on starter and low-skill jobs, you are also in another thread encouraging the use of self-checkouts, which will also contribute to the tightening effect for those who are in the same unfortunate boat you had found yourself in.

Yes, automation will happen regardless of what you, personally, do when purchasing, but as with any growing problem, it's incumbent on all of us to consider what part we'll play in that problem's acceleration. Just as it's incumbent on all of us to understand which policies will best address the complex problems facing the working poor, and which will likely only compound their difficulties while creating problems for others.

As always, it is much easier to make gross oversimplifications, misrepresent the problem (whether intentionally or through our own personal biases), say "the government should fix it" or "business owners are greedy" or "it's just going to happen anyway", than it is to make even the small changes we ourselves could make to help decelerate or mitigate the problem.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby rustled » Jan 25th, 2018, 10:11 am

kgcayenne wrote:
LTD wrote: a high wage. . .


What is your definition of a high wage?

I’m no more capable or skilled in my job than I was before the training I took to ‘qualify’ for it. The difference between the two was the $20,000/year it cost me to sit on my *bleep* in a classroom to reaffirm my capabilities and subsequently buy the little piece of paper that says I can do it at a higher rate of pay.

Not every one has, can borrow, or can receive grants to obtain a little piece of paper that tells the world that they have satisfied the criteria and now fit neatly into the little itty-bitty box that defines an occupation.

You've identified a real problem, IMO.

We've turned education into a business, and developed a culture where paper credentials are given far more respect than practical credentials.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 10:17 am

BINGO
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Sparki55 » Jan 25th, 2018, 12:23 pm

Omnitheo wrote:Refer to my post here
http://forums.castanet.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0&start=90

From people who have been there more recently, I was dismayed to find these same practices still occurring.


Then I found that the managers were going through those hours afterwards and adjusting them. Changing any 8 hour shifts back to 7:15. Removing several hours of OT that employees were forced to work. I reported this to employment standards, who did nothing. I reported it on Castanet, and was promptly let go.


There's two ways this play out, either the company did not adjust hours worked and this is a made up point or they were adjusting hours and the government did not step in to help.
If the government did not step in to help then shame on them for not regulating this business. Your post however, is not relevant to the topic of shaming business owners. The minimum wage workers at said business were hired on and agreed to their wage and provided money in exchange for what they brought to the table. If they were valuable (seems like you were) they move up and take on more responsibility.

I would not have accepted the abuse (if true) that you outlined and would have promptly found another job, fast food places are always hiring.
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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby Jonrox » Jan 25th, 2018, 12:54 pm

Rich and powerful CEO's don't determine what to pay their employees. The market does. The supply and demand for certain types of workers determines the rate of pay.

You can blame the guys at the top all you want, but minimum wage is what it is because there's an endless supply of unskilled workers willing to take those jobs.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby dirtybiker » Jan 25th, 2018, 12:59 pm

I'm not really sure why all these wage topics end up revolving around
burger flippers.
There is so much more out there with a far higher opportunity of
personal growth potential.

Short story, going from memory, may not be 100% accurate, but darn close;

A landed immigrant took a job at a Kenworth truck dealership, sweeping the shop
and emptying trash cans.
Taking English classes at night.
With the help of the Company he was afforded opportunity to take a Transmission
course and apprenticeship.
Then Engines courses.
Then Management. Sales, etc...
Then another opportunity presented itself....

Ownership !

Not sure if he is to this day the owner of
Edmonton Kenworth, but, He went from new to the Country and emptying the trash
to being the dealership owner..

Guess he should be ashamed...Probably has a nice house and car too...

The travesty.......
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby kgcayenne » Jan 25th, 2018, 1:00 pm

You mean un-certified workers. Do not mistake the lack of post-secondary training for a lack of skill, knowledge, or worth.
"without knowledge, he multiplies mere words."
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids.

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Re: Stop Shaming Business Owners

Postby dirtybiker » Jan 25th, 2018, 1:10 pm

kgcayenne wrote:You mean un-certified workers. Do not mistake the lack of post-secondary training for a lack of skill, knowledge, or worth.


Yes, when the book smart, educated folks feet hit the floor, they still need the
training from their non-diploma counterparts to show real word applications.
"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"

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