Canada commits genocide?

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby jimmy4321 » Jun 11th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Also the thing about the implications to those who weren't even alive - Canada is what it is today for all the wars, and all the good and bad and if we call Canada our home we are the beneficiaries, we own all of the above.
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby kgcayenne » Jun 11th, 2019, 5:34 pm

I’m trying to sort it out. Sometimes I feel full of contradictions and questions. Everything ties in, and a derailment was not the intent, but I had wanted to point out that the native communities are not a good example for how they treat their lower ranking members, either. This also leads to my curiosity about a concept brought up by another: were there indigenous groups willing to assimilate which resulted in some...I don’t know... traitorous? Treasonous? actions from within? Shouldn’t that be considered, too?
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby jimmy4321 » Jun 11th, 2019, 6:07 pm

kgcayenne wrote:I’m trying to sort it out. Sometimes I feel full of contradictions and questions. Everything ties in, and a derailment was not the intent, but I had wanted to point out that the native communities are not a good example for how they treat their lower ranking members, either. This also leads to my curiosity about a concept brought up by another: were there indigenous groups willing to assimilate which resulted in some...I don’t know... traitorous? Treasonous? actions from within? Shouldn’t that be considered, too?


Same here its complicated
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby two_shoes1mit » Jun 11th, 2019, 6:38 pm

The Child was skin and bones.

Why didn't this make a big bold headline. What a horrible, tragic end
to this tiny childs life.

As in similar situations, I wonder - where is the support system for persons having difficulty
dealing with their young'ins. Where is the extended family.
WHERE were the witnesses before this child had to die in these disgusting circumstances.

The Noseworthy lady....................are things different in Alberta? Didn't she have an
obligation to report this situation to child services.

I am so saddened by this story.................it didn't have to be.

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby t76turbo » Jun 11th, 2019, 8:07 pm

Not condoning what has happened in the past to people here before settlers arrived and then the ongoing issues.
The world as a whole was a much nastier place all those years ago. I’m glad I didn’t experience life back then. Not really any value in human life no matter where you were on the planet.

As a whole, humanity must move on from the past wrongdoings. Whatever that may have been. Constantly bringing those issues to the forefront won’t allow us to move on. Native Americans were battling and killing each other for centuries before Europeans landed on these shores. There could’ve been total eradication had the British not wanted to exploit the fur trade.

People have arrived in Canada that have fled true genocide and it is still happening to this day. Rwanda for instance, where million were slaughtered in past few years. Nazi Germany was definitely not fun in the early 40’s! Those are genocides. There are countless more.

Nothing wrong with reconciliation but for how much longer must that go on? At what point have we reached the end and reconciled?
As mentioned by somebody else before there will always be a lawyer trying a new angle. This will never end!
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Silverstarqueen » Jun 12th, 2019, 6:00 am

I think it will be reconciled when indigenous people have something close to our (meaning decendants of europeans) level of opportunities for education, healthcare, housing assistance, social services. That did not happen for the last two hundred or so years of our history, and we are still living with the repercussions now.
If russia or china invaded our territory tomorrow, took away our land rights, forced our children to speak their language and give up their own culture, put our kids in residential schools, made the rest of us live in camps isolated for the rest of society to live in poverty with substandard health care. Our attitude would be a quite different. the result would be very different.And if we then had to listen to the constant complaining of the invaders about how bad we were as a group, how would we react? If the invaders said, well, never mind how bad our situation was, we should just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and forgive and forget, would we be able to do that? It was a type of genocide, now it is just plain discrimination. It's better than it was, maybe some time in the future all Canadians will get a fair shake, but I don't think it will happen as long as the rules of the game are different for some than others. and it won't happen while some people are still pretending that decades of abuse and sometimes genocide are not now having a predictable effect on indigenous people.

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby two_shoes1mit » Jun 12th, 2019, 7:43 am

Silverstarqueen wrote:I think it will be reconciled when indigenous people have something close to our (meaning decendants of europeans) level of opportunities for education, healthcare, housing assistance, social services. That did not happen for the last two hundred or so years of our history, and we are still living with the repercussions now.
If russia or china invaded our territory tomorrow, took away our land rights, forced our children to speak their language and give up their own culture, put our kids in residential schools, made the rest of us live in camps isolated for the rest of society to live in poverty with substandard health care. Our attitude would be a quite different. the result would be very different.And if we then had to listen to the constant complaining of the invaders about how bad we were as a group, how would we react? If the invaders said, well, never mind how bad our situation was, we should just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and forgive and forget, would we be able to do that? It was a type of genocide, now it is just plain discrimination. It's better than it was, maybe some time in the future all Canadians will get a fair shake, but I don't think it will happen as long as the rules of the game are different for some than others. and it won't happen while some people are still pretending that decades of abuse and sometimes genocide are not now having a predictable effect on indigenous people.


What do you mean by lack of opportunities for education, healthcare, housing assistance and social services. You say that did not happen for the last two hundred or so years. I know that it has happened for the past 40 years (maybe longer). To take education for example, an individual from the reserve acquires post secondary education. He/she comes back to the reserve and doesn't 'fit in.' Doesn't fit in on the outside as well. This is changing now, but education has been a free service for a long time. As for education, healthcare, housing assistance and social services - funding for this is provided at the band level. If the funds are misappropriated, as they can be - the band members recourse would be addressed thru elections - just like the rest of us. How have others nations dealt with 'being invaded?' Is their a generational plan to address and address to infinity? I believe it was horrible for the children in the whole residential school program and what their families endured, but hasn't their been equally horrific actions in history?

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Ka-El » Jun 12th, 2019, 7:58 am

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people in whole or in part. The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group", including the systematic harm or killing of its members, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group.

By the second half of the nineteenth century, there were growing concerns among European settlers about the future of the integration and of the indigenous population of Canada.

Those concerns stemmed from the frustration of settlers with the persistence of what they called the Indian problem. The expectation that the indigenous groups would simply give up their ways of life and embrace European languages and culture had not materialized. Frustration grew in proportion to the desire to clear the way for new settlers, a goal that could only be achieved either by removing indigenous communities from their land or assimilating them and forcing them to give up their land rights as separate peoples.

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Country plough boy » Jun 12th, 2019, 8:15 am

*removed*
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Ka-El » Jun 12th, 2019, 8:20 am

*removed*
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Silverstarqueen » Jun 12th, 2019, 11:23 am

If educational opportunities for indigenous children have been the same as for the rest of the population then why this?

"61% of First Nation young adults (20-24) have not completed high school, compared with 13% of non-Aboriginal people in Canada. Only 4% of First Nations people on reserve, and 8% in total, have a university degree, compared to 23% of the Canadian population."

We could just as easily look at percent living in inadequate housing, health care, availability of nourishing food, living below the poverty level. If the current systems (which were not put in place by the indigenous but rather by the majority government), are not getting results, then maybe there is something wrong with the systems. If the funds are either insufficient or misappropriated, then perhaps the system has to change.
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby alanjh595 » Jun 12th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Silverstarqueen wrote:If educational opportunities for indigenous children have been the same as for the rest of the population then why this?

"61% of First Nation young adults (20-24) have not completed high school, compared with 13% of non-Aboriginal people in Canada. Only 4% of First Nations people on reserve, and 8% in total, have a university degree, compared to 23% of the Canadian population."

We could just as easily look at percent living in inadequate housing, health care, availability of nourishing food, living below the poverty level. If the current systems (which were not put in place by the indigenous but rather by the majority government), are not getting results, then maybe there is something wrong with the systems. If the funds are either insufficient or misappropriated, then perhaps the system has to change.


What part of that has to do with "Genocide"? The inhabitants of Canada are 4.9% indigenous.
What percent of Canada's population is indigenous?
As of the 2016 census, Aboriginal peoples in Canada totalled 1,673,785 people, or 4.9% of the national population, with 977,230 First Nations people, 587,545 Métis and 65,025 Inuit. 7.7% of the population under the age of 14 are of Aboriginal descent.

Their choice to live in those conditions, that you speak of, are by their choice. They can move anywhere in this country and will have government sources of funding to do so. The education and the food is right there for them to pick from, and all tax free at that.
They choose to stay where they are. Leave them alone, it's their choice.
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Glacier » Jun 12th, 2019, 2:58 pm

alanjh595 wrote:Their choice to live in those conditions, that you speak of, are by their choice. They can move anywhere in this country and will have government sources of funding to do so. The education and the food is right there for them to pick from, and all tax free at that.
They choose to stay where they are. Leave them alone, it's their choice.

We have an urbanization crisis in Canada, and it's not healthy. The more urban the environment, the more income inequality you get, and that goes for First Nations as well. The more urban the environment, the more depression and loneliness you get, and that's also bad for society. The rural areas of Canada are being gutted of people because of government policies that focus on pouring resources in the big cities. White people are leaving rural Canada.

If it weren't for native populations the rural populations would be far worse off. I grew up in the only white dominated community in the Chilcotin, and the place is shrinking aging fast. When I was in school there in the 1990s, there was 70 kids in the school. Now there are 15, and the next nearest school is over 50 km away. In that community 50 km away the school in the white community has closed and a new school has opened up on the reservation right next door. If it weren't for the reservation, there'd be nothing there today but maybe 10 kids. But because of the native community, the school is thriving. They have troubles to be sure, but it's FAR better to deal with them in their traditional lands than to get them to move and get lost to Vancouver.

The reason why native communities are not dying is that the Federal government does put in a sizeable amount of money.

And before anyone complains about that, just remember that the governments (provincial and federal) put huge amounts of money into every single municipality in Canada. Rural unincorporated Canada does not get the same level of funding, which is one reason why populations are dwindling.

Also, First Nations are working hard to get economic opportunities (logging, mining, tourism, ranching, etc.), and good on them. Back on the 1980s there was nothing for FN to do. They had to send their kids to the white school next door, work on the white guy's farm, or try to get a white guy to train him how to operate logging equipment. Now they are becoming more self sufficient with FN having schools, logging companies, etc. Meanwhile, the white communities next door had their forestry offices, etc. closed and shipped to the big city.

When you have First Nations in charge of economic opportunities, you don't get as much centralization because their rural reservations are the centre of their communities.
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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby fvkasm2x » Jun 13th, 2019, 3:16 pm

Depends on what we're talking about.


The takeover of North America and resulting wars... sure, I'm fine with the word there. A bit of a stretch, as nobody attempted to actually wipe them out completely, but I won't object.

The residential schools and everything that came after Eurpoean settlers. Sure, I'm ok with that word here too. They were forced to give up every part of their culture and life. Their beliefs, their language, their Gods. Everything about them was attempted to be taken from them or changed.


BUT


I have no idea why we're equating these things with the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

Violence against aboriginal women is mainly committed by members of their own tribe and neighbors. It has noting to with the word genocide. The 2 things I mentioned above have nothing to do with the missing and murdered women.


The 3 things shouldn't be conflated and they are all vastly different issues IMO that shouldn't be intertwined.

It's not like Canada, or even white people in general are out there trying to murder all the Natives. You have a few one offs, a few serial killers and the rest is all "in house" violence. As sad as it is, it isn't genocide.

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Re: Canada commits genocide?

Postby Ka-El » Jun 13th, 2019, 3:27 pm

^^^ Good points. While the term genocide can apply to the various deliberate efforts to completely wipe out First Nations language and culture (“to take the Indian out of the child”) it does seem a misuse of the term to apply to this specific issue. Yes, the dynamics of violence and abuse that persist among and within First Nations communities is an effect on the atrocities committed, but I doubt that was an intended consequence (unlike the loss of language and culture which was deliberate).
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