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West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

West Kelowna and Peachland topics.

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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby dodgerdodge » Nov 25th, 2012, 7:18 pm

kumazatheef wrote:What are you talking about? There's been news articles saying the underpass would be completed near end of November, and the entire project finished by end of year - weather permitting. Every day I've driven that route I see some sort of activity, even on weekends. If it really bothered you that much you'd read their webpage: http://www.westsideroadinterchange.ca/page2.html On that page you'll find their initial schedule for completion - however, this was altered with the collapse of the retaining walls a year ago, which set the project off by a few months. Just because you don't see anything, doesn't mean something isn't going on, waaay back a couple years ago before construction got to the highway, soil compaction started off Westside Rd. And recently, unless you're one of the rubber-neckers going 30km/hr through the zone, there's an underpass that required grading, utilities, and paving. Geeze, seriously. Armchair engineers the lot of you.

Are you people extremely impatient or just completely unrealistic? Pick one.


But nothing was going on for most of the summer which was in fact the driest period we had sustained for many years so weather would have been perfect for work. Why wasn't the north end of the project finished. The tarmac and layout for the merge lane were only recently done but had nothing to do with the construction of the underpass.
I travelled the road almost daily and it was plain obvious without rubber necking that work stopped. Large pieces of machinery parked up collecting dust, no movement of trucks as there is now, hardly a hard hat to be seen most days.

Was this an engineering feat beyond all previous engineering feats? Was this a new design using state of the art new materials and methods previously unseen or tested? NO it was a road construction project similar to dozens, hundreds or thousands that have been designed and built worldwide and would have been a walk in the park for any construction company bidding on this kind of project and therefore should have been a breeze for the companies concerned, unless they were armchair engineers of course.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby johnhenry » Nov 25th, 2012, 9:18 pm

dodgerdodge wrote:
kumazatheef wrote:What are you talking about? There's been news articles saying the underpass would be completed near end of November, and the entire project finished by end of year - weather permitting. Every day I've driven that route I see some sort of activity, even on weekends. If it really bothered you that much you'd read their webpage: http://www.westsideroadinterchange.ca/page2.html On that page you'll find their initial schedule for completion - however, this was altered with the collapse of the retaining walls a year ago, which set the project off by a few months. Just because you don't see anything, doesn't mean something isn't going on, waaay back a couple years ago before construction got to the highway, soil compaction started off Westside Rd. And recently, unless you're one of the rubber-neckers going 30km/hr through the zone, there's an underpass that required grading, utilities, and paving. Geeze, seriously. Armchair engineers the lot of you.

Are you people extremely impatient or just completely unrealistic? Pick one

But nothing was going on for most of the summer which was in fact the driest period we had sustained for many years so weather would have been perfect for work. Why wasn't the north end of the project finished. The tarmac and layout for the merge lane were only recently done but had nothing to do with the construction of the underpass.
I travelled the road almost daily and it was plain obvious without rubber necking that work stopped. Large pieces of machinery parked up collecting dust, no movement of trucks as there is now, hardly a hard hat to be seen most days.

Was this an engineering feat beyond all previous engineering feats? Was this a new design using state of the art new materials and methods previously unseen or tested? NO it was a road construction project similar to dozens, hundreds or thousands that have been designed and built worldwide and would have been a walk in the park for any construction company bidding on this kind of project and therefore should have been a breeze for the companies concerned, unless they were armchair engineers of course.


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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 25th, 2012, 9:35 pm

DashFiveGuy wrote:Ok, it's obvious by your response that you are just being argumentative because no one in their right mind could possibly be serious in suggesting that the Westside Rd interchange project is somehow more complex then building the Lions Gate Bridge was.

Please point to the part where I said one was more complex than the other ... please. I was merely pointing out that comparing this to a metal bridge 70 years ago is not an appropriate comparison.

DashFiveGuy wrote:If you want to compare apples to apples fine, then how about the project to replace the floating bridge.

So you're saying dirt = water??
Sorry, if you truly want to compare apples to apples find me a construction job similar to Westside Rd. ... the closest that comes to mind is the complete re-org of the highway through Chilliwack ... which I believe took several years as well, but feel free to prove me wrong.

DashFiveGuy wrote: and yet the entire bridge replacement project took just a few months more than what this fiasco

Are you including the time when they pile drove? Or the setup/takedown of the yard where the floating sections were prefabbed? Or the approach preparation on the Westside? (y'know, the part where traffic didn't have to be detoured until the end).

DashFiveGuy wrote:The Westside Rd interchange project had far less to do with improving safety or traffic flow than it did in providing access to a new shopping center.

The semis having to start the drive up the hill from the red light where the Westside Rd was say "hi" ... if you've already forgotten how bad that was during the summer, or the traffic backed up to the bottom of the bridge hill, then ... well ... I'm sure the previous bridge wasn't that bad either.


As a daily user of the road would I have preferred the project to be completed a long time ago? Sure! Of course, it's an extra hassle ... but y'know, it's just a road, and it will get done, and company/people's reputations are on the line and I physically see activity going on ... but it's obviously just me, I'm a nerd for watching diggers and machinery constructing and improving things of this magnitude ... we're already seeing the returns on this investment, enjoy it.

Edited to fix broken quote.
Last edited by kumazatheef on Nov 26th, 2012, 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 25th, 2012, 9:42 pm

dodgerdodge wrote:But nothing was going on for most of the summer which was in fact the driest period we had sustained for many years so weather would have been perfect for work. Why wasn't the north end of the project finished.


Uuuh .... they were working on the Sneena Rd* approach. The part that's hard to see from the highway cause there's a mobile home park in the way, and well, just can't see it from the highway. Involved in that was also installation of utilities, those little things like sewer and drainage and all that, things you don't need "large pieces of machinery" to do ... and, blah, who am I kidding, were you blind?

Wait wait ... hold on, are we talking about a different Westside Rd interchange?

* Edit: Actually Nancee Way & Spland Rd South, which connects to Sneena Rd.
Last edited by kumazatheef on Nov 26th, 2012, 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby dodgerdodge » Nov 26th, 2012, 12:03 am

kumazatheef wrote:
Uuuh .... they were working on the Sneena Rd approach. The part that's hard to see from the highway cause there's a mobile home park in the way, and well, just can't see it from the highway. Involved in that was also installation of utilities, those little things like sewer and drainage and all that, things you don't need "large pieces of machinery" to do ... and, blah, who am I kidding, were you blind?

Wait wait ... hold on, are we talking about a different Westside Rd interchange?


So there were people working but nobody could see them. Ok a couple of guys with shovels were digging ditches for drainage on that road that no one can see and no one will use unless they live in the mobile home park.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 26th, 2012, 12:59 am

dodgerdodge wrote:So there were people working but nobody could see them. Ok a couple of guys with shovels were digging ditches for drainage on that road that no one can see and no one will use unless they live in the mobile home park.


Unless you have X-ray or went in behind on the northern slope, you wouldn't see them from the highway.

The original placards from the open house a couple years ago stated project completion would be Fall 2012 ... considering there was a partial collapse along that time line, a couple months off schedule is not too shabby.

Anyone care to mention the 6 (and sometimes 7) days a week they've been working to try to make up time? Not to mention a couple long weekends? No? No one's grateful enough, too self-entitled?

Oh, PS. For everyone that says what the workers "should" be doing, I hope y'all obey the 60km/hr construction speed limit, because that's what you "should" be doing.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kay-c » Nov 26th, 2012, 11:26 am

there is a whole crew under the bridge working on something
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby Dash5 » Nov 26th, 2012, 12:47 pm

kumazatheef wrote:So you're saying dirt = water??
Sorry, if you truly want to compare apples to apples find me a construction job similar to Westside Rd. ... the closest that comes to mind is the complete re-org of the highway through Chilliwack ... which I believe took several years as well, but feel free to prove me wrong.


First of all, would it kill you to learn how to use the quote feature properly? Re-read you're post from yesterday at 8:35pm.

No, I'm most certainly NOT saying dirt = water!! In fact the point I have been making, and that you have apparently failed to comprehend, is that a construction project over water is infinitely more complex than one solely on land and therefore the examples I provided illustrate that the scheduled timeframe (even before the wall collapse) for a project of this small scale was ridiculously long to begin with and they have failed to meet even this incredibly loose timeframe.

Since you brought it up, the Evans Rd connector project in Chilliwack may not be a bad comparison for your apples to apples cliché. Like the Westside Rd interchange project, the Evans Rd connector project also involved an overpass over a busy highway, a traffic circle, elevated earth ramps with similar retaining walls and first nations territory. Sure, the Evans Rd project only has one overpass as opposed to the two in the Westside Rd project but that one overpass spans a wider and busier highway as well as a busy service road additionally it involved two new freeway on/off ramps, realignment/creation of multiple connecting roads and significantly more paving work. At $48 million, even the budgets for the 2 projects were similar. Really the biggest differences between the two projects were the scheduled timeframes! The Evans Rd connector project broke ground on 22 August 2008 and was scheduled for completion by spring 2010 but it was opened for use on 30 October 2009, several months AHEAD of schedule!
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 26th, 2012, 2:51 pm

DashFiveGuy wrote:First of all, would it kill you to learn how to use the quote feature properly? Re-read you're post from yesterday at 8:35pm.

Yes, yes it would. But for clarity's sake, do you mind pointing out what was done improperly? As far as I can tell it's just rebutting point-by-point.

DashFiveGuy wrote:... a construction project over water is infinitely more complex than one solely on land ...

Infinite, hey? I guess we're lucky the bridge didn't also take infinitely longer than the over/under-passes.


DashFiveGuy wrote:Since you brought it up, the Evans Rd connector project in Chilliwack may not be a bad comparison for your apples to apples cliché. Like the Westside Rd interchange project, the Evans Rd connector project also involved an overpass over a busy highway, a traffic circle, elevated earth ramps with similar retaining walls and first nations territory. Sure, the Evans Rd project only has one overpass as opposed to the two in the Westside Rd project but that one overpass spans a wider and busier highway as well as a busy service road additionally it involved two new freeway on/off ramps, realignment/creation of multiple connecting roads and significantly more paving work. At $48 million, even the budgets for the 2 projects were similar. Really the biggest differences between the two projects were the scheduled timeframes! The Evans Rd connector project broke ground on 22 August 2008 and was scheduled for completion by spring 2010 but it was opened for use on 30 October 2009, several months AHEAD of schedule!


Want me to point out that the original budget for the Evans Rd project was set at $38 million? Or, as you pointed out, Evans Rd only had 1 overpass, whereas Westside Rd has 2 ... so that should make it in the ballpark of twice as long ... oh wait, which it is, even with the wall collapse, so had the wall not collapsed it would've been shorter ... and again, as you pointed out, at roughly the same budget for twice the number of passes, we're getting a pretty good deal. So 1 apple = 2 apples? Guess that explains my predicament this morning where 1 cup of coffee wasn't satisfying enough.

But I digress, using the aforementioned logic if a bridge is infinitely more complex than 2 overpasses, then that would make Evans Rd half as infinite as Westside Rd ... so you're right, they should've had it done way faster than the project managers and professional engineers that designed, consulted, and planned for ... shame on them for utilizing their years of experience and expertise and not satisfying your impatience.

As previously stated, annoying to drive through that construction multiple times a day? Yes, and let me ask you: did you do your due diligence and approach them when they had their open house? Have you designed/planned anything of this magnitude yourself? If you honestly think that the professionals whose careers it is to build these things are wrong, then I have some home renos I'm looking to get done by end of week, so you're hired.

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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby Dash5 » Nov 26th, 2012, 6:01 pm

DashFiveGuy wrote:First of all, would it kill you to learn how to use the quote feature properly? Re-read you're post from yesterday at 8:35pm.

kumazatheef wrote:Yes, yes it would. But for clarity's sake, do you mind pointing out what was done improperly? As far as I can tell it's just rebutting point-by-point.


You re-read your post and still can't figure out how you screwed up the quote? Hard to believe.

Sad that I have to lead you by the hand but here goes... In your nonsensical post from yesterday at 8:35pm have a look at the paragraph immediately following the line where I ask you what the fact that it (Lions gate bridge) was initially a toll bridge has to do with how long it took to complete. They way you've quoted it you make it appear that the next paragraph is your rebuttal when in fact it was more of my quote.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby Dash5 » Nov 26th, 2012, 6:42 pm

kumazatheef wrote:Want me to point out that the original budget for the Evans Rd project was set at $38 million? Or, as you pointed out, Evans Rd only had 1 overpass, whereas Westside Rd has 2 ... so that should make it in the ballpark of twice as long ... oh wait, which it is, even with the wall collapse, so had the wall not collapsed it would've been shorter ... and again, as you pointed out, at roughly the same budget for twice the number of passes, we're getting a pretty good deal. So 1 apple = 2 apples? Guess that explains my predicament this morning where 1 cup of coffee wasn't satisfying enough.


Want me to point out that it was your idea to compare to this project? As it turns out it was a pretty decent comparison, just doesn't support your argument is all.

http://www.chilliwack.ca/main/page.cfm?id=1505
The 2.5 kilometre connecter and interchange links Evans Road at Knight Road to the south, with Ashwell Road at Deans Avenue to the north; providing an alternate route for residents, businesses and visitors between Chilliwack and Sardis. Extended bike lanes and sidewalks will provide continuity for cyclists and pedestrians. There is a roundabout as well as bridge crossings over Chilliwack Creek and Chilliwack Creek diversion. The project also includes an at-grade rail crossing over the CN Railway. The Evans Road Connector project will connect Evans Road to Prospera Centre.

The Canada-BC Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund provided a $2 million grant towards the project. The BC Ministry of Transportation contributed $4 million and ICBC has funded $100,000. The remaining costs of the project are paid for by City of Chilliwack development cost charges. The $48.8 million budget for the Evans Road Connector project includes land purchase, utilities, environmental and engineering costs. The budget also contains an allowance of $150,000 for landscape work, which is expected to be completed in spring 2010.

The Evans Road Connector project is made possible through a partnership between the Squiala First Nation and the federal, provincial and municipal governments. A land easement agreement allows the new road to cross Squiala lands. The agreement includes the installation of underground utility services, which opens up over 100 acres of land for First Nation development.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 26th, 2012, 8:37 pm

DashFiveGuy wrote:You re-read your post and still can't figure out how you screwed up the quote? Hard to believe.

Sad that I have to lead you by the hand but here goes... In your nonsensical post from yesterday at 8:35pm have a look at the paragraph immediately following the line where I ask you what the fact that it (Lions gate bridge) was initially a toll bridge has to do with how long it took to complete. They way you've quoted it you make it appear that the next paragraph is your rebuttal when in fact it was more of my quote.


Calm down, don't get your panties in a knot. Not sure what's hard to believe, I got lost in the beautifully crafted & witty rebuttal.
Ah, so indeed I did. Totally missed that. Thanks for pointing it out, I've corrected it. I had another thought to go along with that misquote, but it'll be backtracking to quote it there.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby kumazatheef » Nov 26th, 2012, 9:02 pm

First off for the budget, not sure which report I had read or just typo, but you're right my mention of the budget at $38million was slightly off ... the original budget was just over $40million. Emphasis on original, as in from the original release:
http://www.chilliwack.ca/main/page.cfm?id=1510
http://www.gov.chilliwack.bc.ca/main/at ... idents.pdf

DashFiveGuy wrote:Want me to point out that it was your idea to compare to this project? As it turns out it was a pretty decent comparison, just doesn't support your argument is all.

http://www.chilliwack.ca/main/page.cfm?id=1505


You're right, it was my idea, although at the time I couldn't remember specifically which intersection I had in mind because there have been 2-3 major construction projects along that strip of highway (one of the others being Vedder Rd). Anyway, back to comparing the two ...
    - they're both on land ... so that's something in common
    - they both involve having to deal with heavy traffic ... well, close, Evans Rd didn't require significant detours off the main artery, but y'know, there's more traffic so lets give that a wash
    - they both involve overpasses ... check.
    - oh wait, one of them has 2 overpasses ... hmm ... quick math on that one leads me to believe that more structures = more work.

So in summary the Evans Rd project is a better overall comparison than a bridge over water, and it's differences are limited, with the exception of one having 2 separate spans.

Hey, I'll tell ya what. Let's settle this with a wee competition, I'll build a 2,000 sq ft house, and you build a 3,800 sq ft house ... whoever completes first, wins.

Quick edit to add that the original projected budget for Westside Rd was $41 million ... so we're still getting a deal at twice as many passes for the same cost.



As a side thought, does anyone know if the blasting of the mountain was included in the timeline? I suspect it was a precursor; however, but can't seem to find explicit media releases on it.
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby Dash5 » Nov 26th, 2012, 9:32 pm

kumazatheef wrote:So in summary the Evans Rd project is a better overall comparison than a bridge over water, and it's differences are limited, with the exception of one having 2 separate spans.

Hey, I'll tell ya what. Let's settle this with a wee competition, I'll build a 2,000 sq ft house, and you build a 3,800 sq ft house ... whoever completes first, wins.

Quick edit to add that the original projected budget for Westside Rd was $41 million ... so we're still getting a deal at twice as many passes for the same cost.


Originally I thought you were just deliberately being obtuse, I'm not so sure that's the case anymore. I honestly don't believe it is intentional.

Ok, I'll throw one more project out there for comparison:

Phase 1 of the Coquihalla Highway
120 kms of 4 and 6 lane freeway from Hope to Merritt
18 highway interchanges
38 bridge and overpass structures
19 vehicle underpasses
50 pipeline crossings

Construction began in 1984 and the highway was opened on May 16th, 1986. I'll save you the math, that's 20 months, or 10 months less than what it has taken to complete the 2 small overpasses and a traffic circle of the Westside Rd interchange.

As for your house building analogy, I'll gladly show you a 1,200 sq ft house a couple of blocks away that has been under construction for more than 2½ years (I know it's been more because it was started before we moved here and it's not finished yet) and then I'll show you the entire new subdivision up on the hill above full of 2500-3500 sq ft homes that has been built in the same time since we've lived here. I'm guessing the unfinished 1,200 sq ft house is being built by Ledcor and WFN and you're no doubt proud of the progress they've made so far!
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Re: West Kelowna overpass, retaining wall has collapsed.

Postby Dash5 » Nov 26th, 2012, 9:45 pm

kumazatheef wrote:But I digress, using the aforementioned logic if a bridge is infinitely more complex than 2 overpasses, then that would make Evans Rd half as infinite as Westside Rd ... so you're right, they should've had it done way faster than the project managers and professional engineers that designed, consulted, and planned for ... shame on them for utilizing their years of experience and expertise and not satisfying your impatience.


Sorry, your attempts at humour are failing miserably.

kumazatheef wrote:As previously stated, annoying to drive through that construction multiple times a day? Yes, and let me ask you: did you do your due diligence and approach them when they had their open house?


My due diligence? How is it my due diligence? I'm not putting in an offer to purchase!

kumazatheef wrote:Have you designed/planned anything of this magnitude yourself? If you honestly think that the professionals whose careers it is to build these things are wrong, then I have some home renos I'm looking to get done by end of week, so you're hired.


I would love to plan reno's for you! I could take as long as I wanted and I wouldn't have to worry about deadlines or quality control because clearly these silly things obviously don't mean anything to you at all.
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