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Smith Creek mud bog

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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby logman » Nov 6th, 2012, 4:34 pm

How does the property owner feel about your garbage\ "building" and trespassing? The only "*bleep*" is the one that lays it. And doesn't clean up after himself.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby logman » Nov 6th, 2012, 4:37 pm

Sorry,,, i should have said "terd"
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Poindexter » Nov 7th, 2012, 12:20 pm

Ok it's *bleep*, feel better represented now.

I do hear what you saying but you're comparison to garbage is a huge stretch to say the least.

We don't just build on private land either, have you been to powers creek, now there are some structures. The reason we build is because our rides don't chew up the land like yours, we need to smooth it out or build over it, we are definately the lessor of the evils sharing the land.

Are you also a hunter? Last time I was riding at Powers Creek we had to wear orange because of the turds on ATV's that like to shoot at the one or two dear that eek out a living there. We hear the gunshots at Smith Creek too.

Keep trying but your comparison is rubbish.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Buckeye19 » Nov 8th, 2012, 8:01 am

Poindexter wrote:Ok it's *bleep*, feel better represented now.

I do hear what you saying but you're comparison to garbage is a huge stretch to say the least.

We don't just build on private land either, have you been to powers creek, now there are some structures. The reason we build is because our rides don't chew up the land like yours, we need to smooth it out or build over it, we are definately the lessor of the evils sharing the land.

Are you also a hunter? Last time I was riding at Powers Creek we had to wear orange because of the turds on ATV's that like to shoot at the one or two dear that eek out a living there. We hear the gunshots at Smith Creek too.

Keep trying but your comparison is rubbish.


Hunters have every right to use that area as much as you. Deal with it.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Rwede » Nov 8th, 2012, 9:35 am

logman wrote:Just stating the obvious. Is it it on private property or not? Your "building" is un-natural and looks terrible.And probably not legal.



Building any structures on Crown land without the requisite permits and enviro studies is indeed illegal. That includes the mountain bikers' jumps. And, building any trail on Crown land is also illegal. That includes the mountain bikers' trails.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Poindexter » Nov 8th, 2012, 10:38 am

I never disputed the legality, heaven forbid we do anything illigal. Mind if someone followed you around for a week and wrote down the misdemeaners?

My point was for Log to compare a load of construction waste with these structures was a dispatch from the bubble. Last time I checked, tourists and locals didn't flock to the forest to check out a dump.

The part about hunters was simply indulgence. I do alot of hiking and snowshoeing in local mountains and I'm shocked at how few dear and elk are left. But I do have to admit, hunters are always polite dispite the fact we probably just ruined their day with all the noise we made.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Rwede » Nov 8th, 2012, 11:05 am

Poindexter wrote:The part about hunters was simply indulgence. I do alot of hiking and snowshoeing in local mountains and I'm shocked at how few dear and elk are left. But I do have to admit, hunters are always polite dispite the fact we probably just ruined their day with all the noise we made.



That's strange you aren't seeing anything because ungulate populations are at their highest levels here since 1996 right now. There are more moose, deer and elk in the hills, so many that they are extending the seasons on many. In fact, a moose inventory done last year found twice as many moose in the Okanagan as they thought were here, doubled since 1999. Maybe you're in the wrong spots or just don't realize that animals continually adapt and change habits and habitats to avoid detection. And mentioning that you're making all this noise is a strong clue as to why you don't see anything!
You are not stupid, I just think you have bad luck when thinking.

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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Poindexter » Nov 8th, 2012, 11:48 am

I do know what dear, moose and elk dropping look like and I do see them but in small numbers. And just because thier numbers are improving doesnt mean they are abundant. The herd on Dilworth for example where hunting isn't allowed probably numbers a dozen. Now that I'm in Smith Creek where you'd anticipate large numbers all we see are one or two at a time. Same thing in Okanagan Mountain Park or around Crystal mountain where we do see them but in small numbers. I do know of another heard of about 6 but they huddle near a subdivision. It's as though our wildlife is safe as long as they stay clear of the wild.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Rwede » Nov 8th, 2012, 12:23 pm

According to the chief wildlife biologist in Penticton, our numbers are as high as they've ever been.

That's also why predator numbers, especially wolves, have soared in this area. Lots of food = lots of predators. It's also why there are so many urban deer and why they are more wily in the wild with wolves on the prowl.

As you look in your small, isolated hiking spots, you're missing the big picture for the Okanagan which is record numbers of ungulates. And the counts last year in Okanagan Park indicated more elk, moose and deer than in recorded history. For example, elk spotted in the inventory filghts went from 50 in 2004 to 270 in 2011!!!! That burn has been remarkable for ungulate population increases.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Steve-O » Nov 8th, 2012, 4:49 pm

Thank you Poindexter to replying to Logman for me. 100% those are world class trails up there. We met a fellow at the beginning of the climb who was in the area from Isreal and had come specifically to the Okanagan for the mountain biking.

Logman, the building the mtn bikers do is on the existing single track heading up or down the mountain, majority of it being on Crown land on the north side of the road and the southside is, I believe, regional park so no private land being disrespected. Legality of the building?? I'm not a lawyer so I can't answer that. There are no piles of construction debris lying around. There is a stunt that was removed when the burning was being done this past spring, the material for this stunt has been placed well off the trail and stacked neatly for future use. Further up the mtn, much of the building is done with materials that are at hand, fallen trees, rocks etc even parts from that old abandoned Acaidian have been put to good use.

The North side of the road is crown land and therefore everyone has as much a right to access it as the next person and from my experience up in this area, the mtn bikers are one of the more respectful groups of users. We stick to the trails, clean up after ourselves and others and we do no damage to the environement while ehjoying ourselves.

Anyone know what the storey is with that Acadian??
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby bquinn23 » Nov 8th, 2012, 5:10 pm

Honestly my parents live up there and the young people that go up there to go mud bogging chew up the road and leave A LOT of garbage. Not to mention that the dirt bikers and quaders have no respect for time and often wake my parents up!! The majority of people that do go quading and dirt biking up there forget all road laws and i have almost been run down a few times by irresponsible people!! The reason why there are logs
there is because many people that go up there ABUSE the land and leave a mess while creating noise!!!! Of course there are some really good people that go up there as well and walk there dogs ride their mountian bikes and what not!!! Its always the irresponsible people that ruin it for the rest of us!! Bottom line if you can take care of the land then they would not feel forced to block it off!!! So good for you people that wrecked it!!! :hailjo:
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby ktowncichlids » Nov 8th, 2012, 5:29 pm

Poindexter wrote:I do know what dear, moose and elk dropping look like and I do see them but in small numbers. And just because thier numbers are improving doesnt mean they are abundant. The herd on Dilworth for example where hunting isn't allowed probably numbers a dozen. Now that I'm in Smith Creek where you'd anticipate large numbers all we see are one or two at a time. Same thing in Okanagan Mountain Park or around Crystal mountain where we do see them but in small numbers. I do know of another heard of about 6 but they huddle near a subdivision. It's as though our wildlife is safe as long as they stay clear of the wild.



Listen here buddy The only reason you mtn bikers look half decent is becuase your bikes are quite. that is all.

Your 100000000s of nails punded into living and dead trees are not good for the forrest nor the garbage some of your jump faces are made of, In smith creek alone Ive seen signs and car doors as jump faces.

also your 10000000s of yards of wooden constructed trails you leave behind look abosolute disgusting, sure they look cool and are designed very well but after a few years they look like crap, also after 3-5 years some of them become unstable Ive seen them break myself there are 3 sections in smith creek that are built up with wood years ago and now they just lay there rotting on sides of trees not being used. You think anyone goes up and picks them up? you think nails in green trees are healthy?

your mtn biker ares have expanded almost triple in the last 5 years, So who knows how many 10000000s of nails and wood garbage is all over are forrests now.


those huge jumps built everywehre and huge holes beside them lead to erosion, just as bad as dirt bike erosian,
the parking lot is littered with water bottles and looks like *bleep* most the time as well.

then you guys go up there and hang signs on trails originaly built by DIRT BIKERS "NO DIRTBIKES" People have been dirt biking there befor you were eevn born.

Stop playing the innocent game petal pusher. U guys reak as much havoc as us dirt bikers too.

don't even get em started on hunters either. How dare you ever complain about people hunting for FOOD near your stupid hand built bike trails. Very big trophy deer winter in there and people love hiking and hunting in there. If it wasnt for people hunting and providing meet the human civilization would never have been as strong with out MEAT. Don't forget that either.


on a side note, mtn bikes can reach 5-7k You really think RnD costs that much on a bicycle frame? lol
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Steve-O » Nov 9th, 2012, 1:54 pm

"Listen here buddy"

Nice. Little exaggerated on the "100000000's" of nails and yards of wood used to create piles of decaying rubble.

For those of you who have not had the pleasure of hiking or biking up the Smith Creek single track, it is a climb that takes you up 8 -9 km of tight, twisty in places single track with a few points that challenge your fitness level. There are a number of points that you can join the downhill part of the trail but majority of riders will do the full 9 km to what is considered the start of the downhill. The trail down is called "Feel the Love". You can continue up and add an extra 5km if you like.
The downhill has some steep sections and ends in gully where the trail sweeps back and forth from one side to the next. There are perhaps 12 -15 jumps and drops that have been constructed on the downhill. For the most part the structures were built on obstacles mother nature has provided - boulders, fallen trees, that type of thing. I bike up there likely 50 - 60 times a season and can not think of one structure that is not used and is wasting away as a pile of debris and rusting nails.

The mtn bikers are quiet ktowncichlids, and while we may have taken advantage of a moto trail to build our single track (I really don't know the origins of the trail) we stick to the trail and we maintain it - it was cleared of deadfall within 48 hours of the last windstorm. The random cuts going up and down the mountain are not cut by mountain bikers. I've witnessed motos ripping apart a hillside for no apparant reason other than it was there.

Is the parking lot most mtn bikers use littered? Yep, and it is equally obvious that the litter was deposited by the same lowlife that dropped the trimmings from his growop or from the groups of people that come up at night and have a fire not the mtn bikers. Of course I can't say that with 100% certainty as I am sure every user group up there has its share of dirtbags.

Hunters can hunt where they can safely. With the amount of users in this area, I wouldn't think a hunter would even have much success. When I ride up there I think the shots people are commenting on are the propane cannons from the orchards below and not hunters anyways.
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Rwede » Nov 9th, 2012, 2:08 pm

Pounding a nail into any tree on Crown land is also illegal.

Tree spiking prohibited
55 On private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act or on Crown land, a person must not

(a) drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter,

(b) possess any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object with the intention of driving or placing it into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter, or

(c) solicit funds or materials from another person with the stated intention that the funds or material will be used to enable any person to drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter.


As is building any structure:

Unauthorized construction and occupation
54 (1) A person must obtain the consent of the minister before constructing or occupying a building or other structure on Crown land in a Provincial forest unless the construction or occupation is authorized under another enactment.

(2) If the minister determines under section 71 that a person has contravened subsection (1), the minister may order the person to do one or more of the following:

(a) remove the building or other structure;

(b) destroy the building or other structure;

(c) restore the land under the building or other structure.


As is building any trail:

Unauthorized trail or recreation facility construction
57 (1) Unless authorized in writing by the minister or under another enactment, a person must not

(a) construct,

(b) rehabilitate, or

(c) maintain

a trail or other recreation facility on Crown land.

(2) The minister may impose pre-conditions or conditions of an authorization that the minister considers necessary or desirable, to be met by the person, including, but not limited to, requiring that the person provide security.

(2.1) If the minister requires security under subsection (2), the minister may specify

(a) when the security must be paid,

(b) the amount of security that is required,

(c) the form of the security, and

(d) the circumstances under which the security may be realized.

(3) A person who obtains an authorization under subsection (1) must comply with any conditions of the authorization.

(4) If the minister determines under section 71 that a person has contravened subsection (1), the minister may order the person to

(a) remove or destroy or remove and destroy the trail or facility, and

(b) restore the land underlying the trail or facility.

(5) The minister may revoke or vary an authorization granted under this section.
You are not stupid, I just think you have bad luck when thinking.

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But that is not unusual."
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Re: Smith Creek mud bog

Postby Steve-O » Nov 9th, 2012, 3:56 pm

Rwede wrote:Pounding a nail into any tree on Crown land is also illegal.

Tree spiking prohibited
55 On private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act or on Crown land, a person must not

(a) drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter,

(b) possess any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object with the intention of driving or placing it into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter, or

(c) solicit funds or materials from another person with the stated intention that the funds or material will be used to enable any person to drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter.


As is building any structure:

Unauthorized construction and occupation
54 (1) A person must obtain the consent of the minister before constructing or occupying a building or other structure on Crown land in a Provincial forest unless the construction or occupation is authorized under another enactment.

(2) If the minister determines under section 71 that a person has contravened subsection (1), the minister may order the person to do one or more of the following:

(a) remove the building or other structure;

(b) destroy the building or other structure;

(c) restore the land under the building or other structure.


As is building any trail:

Unauthorized trail or recreation facility construction
57 (1) Unless authorized in writing by the minister or under another enactment, a person must not

(a) construct,

(b) rehabilitate, or

(c) maintain

a trail or other recreation facility on Crown land.

(2) The minister may impose pre-conditions or conditions of an authorization that the minister considers necessary or desirable, to be met by the person, including, but not limited to, requiring that the person provide security.

(2.1) If the minister requires security under subsection (2), the minister may specify

(a) when the security must be paid,

(b) the amount of security that is required,

(c) the form of the security, and

(d) the circumstances under which the security may be realized.

(3) A person who obtains an authorization under subsection (1) must comply with any conditions of the authorization.

(4) If the minister determines under section 71 that a person has contravened subsection (1), the minister may order the person to

(a) remove or destroy or remove and destroy the trail or facility, and

(b) restore the land underlying the trail or facility.

(5) The minister may revoke or vary an authorization granted under this section.



Yep. And don't jaywalk neither!! :dyinglaughing:
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