Third Jihad: Final Solution for Western Civilization

[Nebula]

Ah yes, we must find justification within ourselves for the violence of others toward us. What you forget, or rather, what you ignore, is that the Islamic project is to bring the non-Islamic world into submission to Islam, an entirely different project. You apparently do not comprehend the issues being discussed here or in the video, and instead have reduced it to some tit-for-tat settling of scores.

I did not say it was justified. It's too bad you are okay with pointing a finger and shouting, "They're bad." I'd like to know why they are bad.

[steven lloyd]

Little did I know then how insidious it is and how much more was and still is really going on.

Well, after two major wars fueled by religious and economic causes (or mostly economic caused dressed up as religious to entice the local population), it's no surprise it's still going on. Muslim fundamentalists are very good at turning people onto their side - especially people who have nothing, ...

Ah yes, economic marginalization and disenfranchisement creates the perfect conditions for recruitment. This can be seen to some degree now in our own communities (eg. Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver), and certainly for some time in the ghettos of Chicago, New York, Las Angeles, etc. and gangs are becoming more sophisticated all the time. Still, they pale in comparison to the organization and reach of Islamic extremism, and in cities in North America we now have disenfranchised youth who instead of joining gangs are converting to Islam and many being prepared to die for their new found cause. I think the argument for investing in youth intervention to encourage education and economic participation becomes stronger when we look for some ways to slow this tide – although by no means do I suggest this is the answer in itself.

I'd like to know why they are bad.

Well, for starters – they recruit people who are lost and prime them to become martyrs, suicide bombers or such, with the goal to murder as many innocent people as possible through their action and create chaos and terror. The more innocent people killed, the greater the spectacle, the more glory to Allah. Their ultimate goal is to impose Islamic law on all of us and prevail over our freedoms and liberties. And unlike the gang bangers in Chicago or Las Angeles, if an extremist group managed to get a hold of weapons grade nuclear or chemical weapons (and I’m quite certain they are already diligently working hard at it) they will have no compunction whatsoever in using it, not as a threat, but as an actual spectacle, Glory be to Allah.

[Homeownertoo]

I am no expert on the Koran but it is my understanding that it does not incite violence so much as the interpretation of Imams does. I don't mind being corrected on that.

That makes two of us. But my understanding does include that of the approx. 40 references to jihad in the Koran, 38 of them concern violent jihad toward one's enemies/enemies of Islam, the other two to jihads of personal nature. Then there is the uber-violent life of the warlord founder of Islam. You are aware, I assume, that the founding act of Islam was the wiping out of the Jewish town of Medina (it had a Jewish name at the time, Yathrib), which involved murdering all males over the age of puberty and enslavement of younger males and all females. I forget the Islamic name for this divine action though it marks the beginning of Islam. And there should be no need to mention that the expansion of Islam under Mohammed was not by conversion, it was by war. Christ, by contrast, led no armies on crusades of conquest. Finally, and perhaps most pertinent, is the fact that the imams you blame have no trouble finding justification within the Koran for their interpretations. It is the so-called moderate Muslims who struggle to find substantial passages that undermine the extremist interpretations.

In your original post you seemed to have a difficult time understanding how Dr. Jasser can be an American first and a Muslim second. I'm not sure that's true, but he certainly seems as moderate as any Christian can. You asked how that is possible within Islam. It's just as possible as it is with Christianity.

Yes, he seems as moderate as any Christian can. But it is certainly not 'just as possible' as it is with Christianity unless you are limiting that concept to the United States, and even there I am highly doubtful. Ask any Muslim of an Islamic country about the possibilities of converting to another religion, or of accepting a homeland for the Jews in the Middle East, or even accepting Jews as equals.

Ask Muslims anywhere what they think about 9/11 or any other of the Islamic atrocities in the West and compare their responses to those of Christians, and decide which is the more moderate. Ask Christians or Jews in Islamic countries, if you can find any, about how moderate their Muslim neighbours are toward them. Ask those Muslim neighbours what they think of gays, or feminists, or concepts such as freedom of religion and freedom of speech. And while you are at it, ask yourself why, whenever Muslims come into contact with another group, be it Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or secular, or other Islamic denomination, there is inevitably violence, as we see in the world today in Asia, Africa, Europe and North America.

You strike me as exceedingly naive if you truly believe the your average Muslim is just as moderate in his or her religious attitudes than your average Christian.

My point about the Bible being rife with violence (yes, the Old Testament) is that there are some rather brutal passages and edicts in that book. People simply choose to not follow those parts. If the Koran contains calls to violence, I suppose some Muslims simply choose to not follow those.

The Old Testament is hardly 'rife with violence', especially of violence directed toward others, and Judaism is hardly an imperialistic religion, as Islam most surely is. But the point is, you don't see Christians or Jews beheading infidels in the streets, you don't see Christians or Jews blowing up buildings or slaughtering people to shouts of God is Great. The fact is extremely few Christians and Jews choose to follow any alleged calls to religious violence. The same cannot be said of Muslims.

I guess overall I'm questioning whether this is a problem of Islam, the religion, or the bastardization of a religion for other means.

That is the question. Unfortunately, the evidence points to a problem with Islam the totalitarian ideology (not religion). And that is the nub. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, which are quite clearly religions that seek to answer questions of spiritual nature, Islam is an ideology that recognizes no equivalent to 'give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's'. It is a totalitarian ideology that seeks to regulate all of public and private life according to the precepts of the Koran, and provide the legal basis for all of society, and recognizes no possibility of reform to the rules and guidelines set down in unalterable form by the prophet Mohammed, peace be upon his name.

Got it?

[Homeownertoo]

Well, for starters – they recruit people who are lost and prime them to become martyrs, suicide bombers or such, with the goal to murder as many innocent people as possible through their action and create chaos and terror. The more innocent people killed, the greater the spectacle, the more glory to Allah. Their ultimate goal is to impose Islamic law on all of us and prevail over our freedoms and liberties. And unlike the gang bangers in Chicago or Las Angeles, if an extremist group managed to get a hold of weapons grade nuclear or chemical weapons (and I’m quite certain they are already diligently working hard at it) they will have no compunction whatsoever in using it, not as a threat, but as an actual spectacle, Glory be to Allah.

Excellent response, SL, and saves me having to come up with something half as persuasive.

[zzontar]

Have Islamic countries ever been at war with each other?

[Nebula]

Have Islamic countries ever been at war with each other?

Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.
Iraq/Iran at war 1980 to 1988.

Just to name two.

[zzontar]

Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.
Iraq/Iran at war 1980 to 1988.

Just to name two.

This is why we're doomed. They'll wipe us out or we'll wipe them out or they or we will wipe out everyone. We are a species who have the resources and money to eliminate most all our problems yet would rather spend that money on having enough weaponry to wipe ourselves out. It's like giving a crackhead money to use for food and rent, or more crack. We are the crackhead species of the world with every other species having more sense in this aspect.

[Homeownertoo]

Why do we worry about the Third Jihad when the real problem is our own governments? What do I mean?

As hundreds of cars are torched in Sweden by 'youths', the police did nothing, purposely. According to Stockholm's chief of police, "Vårt mål är att egentligen att göra så lite som möjlig." Translated, that is: “Our goal is really to do as little as possible.” The chief's media relations officer, Lars Byström, elaborated: "We go to the crime scenes, but when we get there we stand and wait."

Which is not quite true. The police actually were quite active ticketing the burnt-out cars for over-parking.

Over in Britain, after a Muslim man took his religion's teachings seriously and beheaded an Englishman, British police leapt into action and arrested several people who tweeted with insufficient sensitivity about their thoughts on Islam, and sent a squad of cops to warn an 86-year-old lady that the cheese wheel she makes for the annual cheese-rolling competition is a threat to public safety. The BBC carefully scrubbed out of its reporting on the beheading any reference to Islam, despite the killer's lengthy discussion of his religious (if you call Islam a religion) reasons for doing so.

"We have seen the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

[zzontar]

An interesting tidbit:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/ ... -2012.html

Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil

[Homeownertoo]

Yup, we read in the papers every day about Latinos flying planes into skyscrapers, blowing up marathon races, massacring colleagues at work, all the while shouting Dios es grande. Same thing in Europe, where it's really Jews and Latins burning all those cars and synagogues.

I demand that airports henceforth begin profiling all people of Latin and Jewish persuasion, and stop pestering those practitioners of the religion of peace.

Now for some facts.

Over the past 35 years 1980-200, there have been more than 60 Islamic terrorist attacks in the US that claimed one or more lives.

During the 35 years 1980-2005, Muslim terrorists accounted for more than 16,000 of the 17,200 deaths and injuries in the US that are terrorism-related. That includes more than 15,000 on 9/11 and more than 1,000 in the 1993 World Trade Centre attack. All according to the FBI. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/image/Terrorism11.jpg and http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html

So much for the threat from all those Jewish and Latino terrorists.

[zzontar]

Now for some facts.

Over the past 35 years 1980-200, there have been more than 60 Islamic terrorist attacks in the US that claimed one or more lives.

During the 35 years 1980-2005,

You see how facts can become so misconstrued? My thoughts on this are on another thread discussing the same thing: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51033&start=15

[Homeownertoo]

A good catch, though it doesn't change anything of substance in my posting.

[Glacier]

[Glacier]

Here is a documentary that was made before the one featured in the OP, but similar in nature. It's 8 years old, but still relevant today. It really gets interesting when they discuss Chamberlain vs. Churchill.

[Thinktank]

Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.
Iraq/Iran at war 1980 to 1988.

Just to name two.

Was that the time Rumsfeld was giving chemical weapons to Saddam?
Lots of real dirty business going on behind the scenes, when two countries
are slaughtering each other's poor people. Never the rich. Like now in Ukraine - the billionaires
never get slaughtered.