The barbarians have arrived

[Glacier]

We need no longer peruse the pages of Gibbons' Decline and Fall to understand how a great society collapses. It happens because we allow ourselves to be persuaded that the blessings of nationhood and liberal democracy are our birthright and are eternal, and could withstand any and all abuses. Like the Romans, we cede more and more of our civilization to the political barbarians until we lose the capacity to distinguish between civilization and barbarism. The end result will not be pretty, according to Gibbons.

I've recently downloaded this book on my ereader, but noticed the thing is 3,820 pages long! Is it really worth the read?

[Homeownertoo]

It's not a quick read. Depends on your personal interest in the topic. But it is rightly considered a classic of both historic writing and on the decline of the Roman Empire (not to say it is the unvarnished truth in all matters). I suggest you pick and choose the parts that interest you and go from there, rather than start at the beginning and try to plow through to the end.

[Thinktank]

EDITED:

You want to flood Canada with Muslims, better be prepared to replace your cherished civil and human rights (gee, I wonder where they came from?) with Shariah law.

This is what Homer2 is trying to say, I think:
Canada is great - but Canada is gradually being destroyed by "repugnant left-wing ideas" that give
more and more rights to immigrants. Homer2 is saying Canada won't be much better than the 'lesser' countries
if this "diversity" trend continues.

But like a a treasure trove of gold and silver jewelry, coins and precious stones hidden inside a holy temple or church,
the most "superior" countries on the planet, have the most "repugnant and disgusting" business practices
that allow them to steal from poorer countries without limits. Like the "great and awesome" British loading up ships with slaves
from Africa, or a really hungry guy with two medium pizzas in front of him - the greatest countries Homer2 is talking
about won't ever quit "grabbing wealth" until there's nothing left to grab.

Our countries are superior, I think, but we're also thieves. Filthy ones.

[Homeownertoo]

Thanks for that informed opinion. Are you sure Riposte and Parry is your cup of tea?

[Thinktank]

Thanks for that informed opinion. Are you sure Riposte and Parry is your cup of tea?

I edited it.

Better?

[steven lloyd]

Better?

That depends. Better than what ?

[Jo]

Come on, people. This is the Post & Riposte. Stop with the off-topic comments, please.

[Homeownertoo]

EDITED:
This is what Homer2 is trying to say, I think:
Canada is great - but Canada is gradually being destroyed by "repugnant left-wing ideas" that give
more and more rights to immigrants. Homer2 is saying Canada won't be much better than the 'lesser' countries
if this "diversity" trend continues.

I have great trouble with many left-wing ideas and wonder where they may lead us, but no such problem with reasonable immigration levels. Most immigrants, including my swarthy-complexioned wife, fit in well, esp. if their first contact with officialdom is not the welfare office. I do have trouble, however, with the possibility of a growing proportion of Muslim immigrants, for reasons discussed elsewhere.

But like a a treasure trove of gold and silver jewelry, coins and precious stones hidden inside a holy temple or church,
the most "superior" countries on the planet, have the most "repugnant and disgusting" business practices
that allow them to steal from poorer countries without limits. Like the "great and awesome" British loading up ships with slaves
from Africa, or a really hungry guy with two medium pizzas in front of him - the greatest countries Homer2 is talking
about won't ever quit "grabbing wealth" until there's nothing left to grab.

Our countries are superior, I think, but we're also thieves. Filthy ones.

It was the British and their navy that put an end to most of the world's slave trade in the 19th century.

[annexi]

I understand your desire to hold onto good canadian values but not your specific concern about Muslims, for how do you know the new canadian Muslims practice sharia? Isn't that supposed to be a real minority of the Muslim population?

[Homeownertoo]

Have you looked at the growth of sharia law in Britain? Or the Netherlands? Or Sweden? There was a story just this week on the situation in Britain, where female genital mutilation (which is illegal) is now so common that in one specific classroom of 30, every girl had been thus mutilated while in Britain. But we needn't look so far abroad. In Ontario public schools, rooms are being set aside for students to practice their Islamic prayers, with girls, of course, relegate to the back of the bus, oops, classroom. So much for the secular school.

[annexi]

If I understand correctly, you think giving foreign nationals civic voting rights will open the possibility of radical Muslims instigating sharia law in Canada? I agree the atrocities committed under that cultural paradigm are to be defended against, but have a problem with tarring all Muslims with the same brush. Do we shut them all out for fear of a few bad apples?

Also to clarify: when you say the barbarians have arrived, who are you referring to?

[annexi]

A quick google on sharia in Canada yields uber-right christian websites seeped in fear mongering. Uber right or uber left is dangerous. Where is the info of the middle ground?

[Glacier]

Also to clarify: when you say the barbarians have arrived, who are you referring to?

He's drawing parallels to how the western Roman Empire ended. You can read up on it in one of the most important books ever written: The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

_____________________________
If we forget history, we are destined to repeat it.

A quick google on sharia in Canada yields uber-right christian websites seeped in fear mongering. Uber right or uber left is dangerous. Where is the info of the middle ground?

Not true. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... round.html

[annexi]

Interesting page Glacier and a good point in certain contexts. Middle ground, as defined thus, doesn't reflect my sentiment however.

What I meant by middle ground is finding factual information that isn't charged with fear (one end of the spectrum) or complacent/lalala everything about it is peachy (the other end of the spectrum).

Indeed parts of sharia law are brutal in nature; but moving forward do we assume all Muslims embrace these brutal aspects of sharia law & reject the individual who is Muslim, or do we reject the ideal & practice of sharia law?

[Homeownertoo]

At a crucial level, rejecting sharia law means rejecting the muslim individual. That's because sharia law has standing in virtually all muslim-majority states. The Koran permits muslim minorities to coexist with majority cultures and thus accept the offical absence of sharia law, but calls them to work toward the alternative. And in reality, muslim minorities (though certainly not all muslim individuals) do seek the imposition of sharia law upon themselves if not upon all of the host society. For evidence, read about Britain, France, Holland, Canada, etc.