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BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Nov 30th, 2012, 4:51 pm

    George+ wrote:I think you did not read you buddy, Urbane's, statement.
Perhaps you're talking about the post that I quoted - where the author pointed out that unlike other professions teachers had not been successful in regulating themselves thanks to the BCTF - but just to refresh your memory here are the facts:

Thanks to the whistle-blowing of two members of the College, Richard Walker - Chair, and Kit Krieger - Registrar, as well as to other BCCT Council members, the BCTF were caught red-handed. It was clear that the BCTF were making every effort to control the College, thereby putting the protection of union members ahead of the public interest and the welfare of students. Both of those whistle-blowers, as you know, were BCTF members and in fact Kit Krieger was once BCTF President while Richard Walker was once a local president. They and a majority of those on the Council wrote to the Minister of Education and requested a review of what was happening at the BCCT. They must have been terribly frustrated with what they were witnessing to take that extraordinary action but they were certainly vindicated by what Don Avison found.

So, George, we can continue this little game of you denying the obvious but anyone with two brain cells knows what the BCTF was trying to do. I could type here that the average teacher in British Columbia makes half a million dollars a year and it would make as much sense as the garbage that you keep coming up with. I don't want to play that game though so keep making stuff up if you like and I'll just keep pointing out your fibs. And by the way, you should be more respectful to administrators (it's been a couple of weeks since I mentioned that so I thought that you were due).
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Nov 30th, 2012, 5:55 pm

AND my point simply was, that if you do not think politics
happens in the other professions, then you ARE totally out to lunch.

I will appreciate administrators when they sincerely start standing up for teachers.
You included.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Nov 30th, 2012, 7:02 pm

    George+ wrote:AND my point simply was, that if you do not think politics
    happens in the other professions, then you ARE totally out to lunch.

    I will appreciate administrators when they sincerely start standing up for teachers.
    You included.
Politics happens everywhere but the BCTF has taken it to a new level George. The whistle-blowers came forward, those who were serving on the College Council told their story, Avison wrote his report, and the rest is history. The BCTF blew it and you know it. They are an embarrassment to the profession and the members need to stand up and do something about that. And your assertion about the BCTF being a really democratic union is laughable considering that members can't even vote for their executive. And the motion to allow members to vote for the executive wasn't even permitted to come to a vote at this year's AGM. So you're fibbing once again and I call you on it. Again.

Administrators had to literally stand up for teachers during the job action because while teachers were refusing to do some of their usual activities administrators were picking up the slack. And instead of thanking them here you are once again slamming them. You've bought into that "us versus them" attitude that can happen in union management situations and it's an attitude that has no place in education. It's time to put the students first and put the union rhetoric on the back burner. For good.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Veovis » Nov 30th, 2012, 8:51 pm

It's pretty simple really. There are two choices:

1. The teachers can yell, scream, deny, argue and baselessly fuss like george here.

2. They can act like professionals, move on from what has happened and bring respect to their profession.

I know which direction the BCTF is going, but hopefully teachers themselves can be better and smarter than that.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Dec 1st, 2012, 10:36 am

If you're solution is, just get rid of the union.

Won't happen.

And that is not a solution, as teachers faired horribly
when there was no union with huge classes, and
lousy working conditions.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby goatboy » Dec 1st, 2012, 11:01 am

George+ wrote:I will appreciate administrators when they sincerely start standing up for teachers.
You included.


Being that you're not a teacher I doubt you even KNOW one administrator, let alone what they do.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 1st, 2012, 11:52 am

    George+ wrote:If you're solution is, just get rid of the union.

    Won't happen.

    And that is not a solution, as teachers faired horribly
    when there was no union with huge classes, and
    lousy working conditions.
Another fib. How many is that now for you?? I was a teacher and my working conditions were not lousy and I did not have huge classes before we unionized. Sorry to disappoint you (NOT!) but I enjoyed my job, particularly in the years before we unionized.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Dec 1st, 2012, 1:10 pm

Then you would not know reality if it stared you in the face.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby goatboy » Dec 1st, 2012, 4:06 pm

George+ wrote:Then you would not know reality if it stared you in the face.


Again, seeing that you've never taught in a classroom, how the heck would you know?
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 1st, 2012, 6:27 pm

    George+ wrote:Then you would not know reality if it stared you in the face.
You've outsmarted yourself by telling us that you were never a teacher and now you're kicking yourself. Too funny.

In terms of reality teachers were generally happier before they unionized, before the "us versus them" attitude prevailed, before administrators were slammed for "not standing up for teachers," and before teachers were moved from professional status to trade union status. I continue to believe that most teachers do a very good job and are interested in the welfare of their students but their union is letting them down and they end up doing things like withholding extra help for students, things that are unprofessional. Time for teachers to rise up and demand new leadership and a new direction for the BCTF.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby flamingfingers » Dec 1st, 2012, 7:34 pm

One question Urb:

So we disband the "Union" status of BC teachers and they become/revert to an "Association" how does that make them different from what they are now?
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 1st, 2012, 8:43 pm

    flamingfingers wrote:One question Urb:

    So we disband the "Union" status of BC teachers and they become/revert to an "Association" how does that make them different from what they are now?
The chances of the BCTF being decertified are extremely remote and the main issue IMO is the mechanism for arriving at contracts. My personal choice is "the last best offer" procedure that is sometimes used in professional sports. There are problems with that too since if the government is out of money it's out of money but the system we have now is broken and we need to at least try something different.

Another aspect is that the BCTF is currently led by the "coalition" that is the radical wing of the union. If the BCTF were now being run by Alice Rees (COTA President) or Rick Guenther (who ran against Susan Lambert and lost) we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. How about a law that forces unions like the BCTF to allow members to vote on its leaders? That would at least be a big step in the right direction.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby flamingfingers » Dec 1st, 2012, 8:57 pm

I can see what you are driving at Urb, but you really seem totally hung up on the teachers belonging to a Union. I have No Problem with them calling themselves an Association, Collective or anything else but your harping on "Union" just seems to scratch the blackboard of your thinking. And how do you think calling themselves anything other will be better?

After all, even Hochstein's Independent Contractors of BC is the epitome of a closed union shop.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 1st, 2012, 9:16 pm

    flamingfingers wrote:I can see what you are driving at Urb, but you really seem totally hung up on the teachers belonging to a Union. I have No Problem with them calling themselves an Association, Collective or anything else but your harping on "Union" just seems to scratch the blackboard of your thinking. And how do you think calling themselves anything other will be better?

    After all, even Hochstein's Independent Contractors of BC is the epitome of a closed union shop.
In my opinion refusing to do report cards, refusing to meet with administrators, refusing to do work that is outside of the regular school day, and walking out altogether are activities that are unprofessional and don't belong in our public education system. I've suggested one alternate method for establishing contracts and there are lots of other methods too but the current system isn't working and hasn't worked since its inception.

I can tell you that there was a definite change within the system when Bill Vander Zalm declared that teachers and administrators simply couldn't work together in the same organization, that we had to move to a different model where teachers were in a separate association or union from principals and vice-principals. What he said wouldn't work had been working though and he helped create a system that has not worked as well. Obviously the union activists like George believe that teachers are getting more now in terms of salary and benefits as well as smaller classes and yet teachers seem more unhappy than ever. So the reality is that the current model isn't working out all that well for teachers and it certainly isn't working out well for students who have their education disrupted by various job actions.

By the way, I'm not really hung up on the name. The BCTF was called the BCTF before it gained union status and it's called the BCTF now. I do have a problem with the political nature of the BCTF (it's really an arm of the NDP) and I have a problem with teachers not being able to directly elect their leadership. I also have a problem, as noted above, with the union using various job actions that hurt students. That's my position.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Artofthedeal » Dec 3rd, 2012, 3:20 pm

flamingfingers wrote:One question Urb:

So we disband the "Union" status of BC teachers and they become/revert to an "Association" how does that make them different from what they are now?


biggest difference FF - under an Association - like Manitoba for instance, teachers don't have the right to strike. No teacher union should be able to use children as pawns. It is morally reprehensible, and there is absolutely no excuse for this, under any circumstances. Ex-teachers like "George" may be able to rationalize it away, like so many other BCTF indiscretions and immoral activities, but that's just so they can sleep at night. No one else can, and no one else should. Teachers should not have the right to strike, end of story.
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