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BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby grammafreddy » Dec 5th, 2012, 8:08 pm

goatboy wrote:Granny Freddy, those results are the average of all the scores, so while you don't want to admit it, they represent an average BC student. Some are better, some are worse. Why do some people have a hard time actually acknowledging that our education system is actually producing pretty good results? Oh wait, because the BCTF has them conditioned to think that the system is falling apart when reality is the complete opposite. 99% of the world would kill to have the opportunity to send their kids to our schools!


Oh, quit crying at me about the rest of the friggin' world. I don't give two hoots about some downtrodden kid in some remote country run by a religious dictator regime. I care about OUR kids.

I don't like the BCTF, either, so don't bother hauling that line out at me. Plain and simple - the BCTF IS the problem - right at the very top of it, too. And too many teachers swallow their kool-aid and keep playing follow the corrupt leader. Their unreasonable demands and long wish lists coupled with holding our children hostage while they play their fool games makes me incredibly angry at these supposed-to-be adults.

The system is flawed - terribly.

Averages are made up of the top and the bottom to arrive at a middle. When you have more at the bottom, the middle sinks in the quicksand. The top ones just keep the masses from going under entirely.

Please .. don't bleed on my keyboard if you don't intend to clean your mess up.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby flamingfingers » Dec 5th, 2012, 8:16 pm

Averages are made up of the top and the bottom to arrive at a middle. When you have more at the bottom, the middle sinks in the quicksand. The top ones just keep the masses from going under entirely.


Bell Curve anyone? Think about it.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Veovis » Dec 5th, 2012, 8:42 pm

I'm not going to argue that averages aren't just that. They are. However to seem to imply that 2 really smart kids are making the average so top balanced isn't right either.

There are also many kids that can ace any exam on the planet that are socially inept. Teachers have failed there as well.

School is for many purposes, brain education, social education, practical skills applications, physical education. A wide range of balanced ideals need to be presented as some children are academic, some are more athletic, but overall most kids are smart and competent.

The averages aren't wrong in my mind, most kids can do everything the schools ask. Where it fails is when it gets hard, and when a kid finds something hard, it becomes harder for a teacher to get that kid to get them to do it. It has sadly become the "average" to say that it's just a "problem kid" or a "special needs kid" instead of actually working hard. Some of those kids have no issues, the teacher does and an easy cop out is to label them.

The average kid in BC schools is actually offered a very solid education, where students and teachers can do great things if both could stop having tantrums more often. Unfortunately as the adults, the teachers deserve more blame at that stage.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Dec 5th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Veovis wrote:The averages aren't wrong in my mind, most kids can do everything the schools ask. Where it fails is when it gets hard, and when a kid finds something hard, it becomes harder for a teacher to get that kid to get them to do it. It has sadly become the "average" to say that it's just a "problem kid" or a "special needs kid" instead of actually working hard. Some of those kids have no issues, the teacher does and an easy cop out is to label them.

The average kid in BC schools is actually offered a very solid education, where students and teachers can do great things if both could stop having tantrums more often. Unfortunately as the adults, the teachers deserve more blame at that stage.


:rate10:

Couldn't agree more.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby goatboy » Dec 5th, 2012, 10:45 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Oh, quit crying at me about the rest of the friggin' world. I don't give two hoots about some downtrodden kid in some remote country run by a religious dictator regime. I care about OUR kids.

I don't like the BCTF, either, so don't bother hauling that line out at me. Plain and simple - the BCTF IS the problem - right at the very top of it, too. And too many teachers swallow their kool-aid and keep playing follow the corrupt leader. Their unreasonable demands and long wish lists coupled with holding our children hostage while they play their fool games makes me incredibly angry at these supposed-to-be adults.

The system is flawed - terribly.

Averages are made up of the top and the bottom to arrive at a middle. When you have more at the bottom, the middle sinks in the quicksand. The top ones just keep the masses from going under entirely.

Please .. don't bleed on my keyboard if you don't intend to clean your mess up.


Whoa, settle down there Granny, you might pull something. As long as the calculation of the scores was the same across all countries, then it's a relative comparison, right? Canada was in the top 5 and BC was in the top 3 in Canada.

BTW, nice to know that you don't care about anyone else except our kids, classy.

The BCTF and how they bully their teachers (and how the teachers drink their kool-aid) is flawed. If you've read any of my posts you know anti BCTF I am. However, our teachers deliver quality education (for the most part) that is backed up by actual results. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Dec 6th, 2012, 8:59 am

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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Rwede » Dec 6th, 2012, 9:19 am

George+ wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

Thoughts?


My thoughts? You would never have had a 33 year teaching career in Finland, like you did in Rutland, George. You would never have made the cut.

"Teachers are selected from the top 10% of graduates."
You are not stupid, I just think you have bad luck when thinking.

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But that is not unusual."
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Dec 6th, 2012, 9:36 am

Rational /worthwhile thoughts? :dyinglaughing:
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Rwede » Dec 6th, 2012, 10:04 am

"The average starting salary for a Finnish teacher was $29,000 in 2008"


Just goes to show ya that paying teachers more money does NOT equate to a better education for kids.

Rather inconvenient for BCTF George.
You are not stupid, I just think you have bad luck when thinking.

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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 6th, 2012, 10:13 am

From the article you linked:

Finland spends around 30 percent less per student than the United States.


The average starting salary for a Finnish teacher was $29,000 in 2008
Compared with $36,000 in the United States.


From another article I found - quoting the Finnish Minister of Education:
Virkkunen: It's a totally different situation in Finland. For me, as Minister of Education, our teachers' union has been one of the main partners because we have the same goal: we all want to ensure that the quality of education is good and we are working very much together with the union. Nearly every week we are in discussions with them. They are very powerful in Finland. Nearly all of the teachers are members. I think we don't have big differences in our thinking. They are very good partners for us.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/justin-sn ... 36802.html


If we examine the Finnish educational system here are a few observations:

1. Despite what George has been telling us money is not the panacea for creating an outstanding educational system. In addition to the info in George's article I've looked at several other sources this morning which show Finnish teachers are making less than their North American counterparts. Susan Lambert would be agitating to change things in Finland if she were there.

2. If there is to be a teachers' union having one that works with the government and not constantly being at war with the government helps make the system work and is far better for students.

3. Far lower immigration levels in Finland make for an entirely different scenario and so when we compare the achievement levels between the top students and the bottom students in Finland and Canada or Finland and the United States we have to keep immigration policies - ESL etc. - in mind.

4. Just Google "Problems with Finnish educational system" and you'll see articles discussing the debates going on there and the problems that they're having within their system. So keep that in mind as well.

ETA: George, I'm curious. Why do you keep posting articles that shoot down your own arguments? You've been telling us forever that we need to spend more money - billions more - on education and then you post an article espousing the virtues of a system that spends much less than we are now.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby goatboy » Dec 6th, 2012, 11:11 am

George+ wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

Thoughts?


Finland spends around 30 percent less per student than the United States.



So while you and the BCTF want us to believe that the only way to quality education is money, apparently it isn't. Thanks for that George.

All teachers in Finland must have a masters degree, which is fully subsidized.



The only incentive for a teacher to have a Masters degree in BC is for the money. If all our teachers were required to have a Masters degree I would have more faith in putting curriculum outcomes in their hands.

An average Finnish teachers earns about the same as an average Canadian teacher, so there's another myth dispelled.

Definitely some good idea's, and the best part is it doesn't need to cost more money. However, what's funny to me is in every BCTF negotiation, it's always about what's best for the kids but it ALWAYS involves needing more money. Obviously, thanks to George's link we can see that more money is not needed.
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby George+ » Dec 6th, 2012, 12:50 pm

Note % of GDP SPENDING ON EDUCATION here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Can ... /Education
5.2% for Canada compared to 6.4% for Finland
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Gone_Fishin » Dec 6th, 2012, 1:22 pm

Sure must SUCK to live in Finnland where the socialist attitude leads to a pathetic GDP. Thank God we're in Canada where our GDP is healthy in comparison.

Nice to see that throwing more money at teachers doesn't lead to a better education system. Thanks for the link, George! :coffeecanuck:
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby Urbane » Dec 6th, 2012, 1:24 pm

So? Teachers are still making less money there than their counterparts in North America and education spending overall is lower. And what do you think about the requirement in Finland that every teacher have a master's degree? It appears as if teachers there act like professionals and are treated as such. How about that? I've not been reading about any job action over there and the Finnish Minister of Education says that the union there works with the government. How about that? And how about starting school when the students are seven years old George? Lots and lots of teachers would be freed up to reduce class size without putting more money into the system. What do you think?
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Re: BCTF declares "year of provincial action"

Postby grammafreddy » Dec 6th, 2012, 1:29 pm

George+ wrote:Note % of GDP SPENDING ON EDUCATION here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Can ... /Education
5.2% for Canada compared to 6.4% for Finland


Does that include all the FREE university for all those students to get their FREE master's degrees?

How do the income tax rates compare? We all know (or we should know) that all these free things are not really free - taxpayers pay for them through income and other taxes.
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