Pipelines

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Re: Pipelines

Postby Merry » Mar 5th, 2018, 1:07 pm

CF - The flights are part of Canada's enforcement policy; just as the highway police are out to catch those who break our traffic laws, and act as a deterrent, the planes are there to catch those who would violate our marine laws. As HG points out, they're there to catch any and all who might pollute our coastal waters, not just one particular group.

As a person who is concerned that we don't have enough enforcement, I would have thought you'd have been cheering such activities, not using them to try to further your own particular argument.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 5th, 2018, 1:39 pm

^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Merry » Mar 5th, 2018, 1:55 pm

Cactusflower wrote:^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.

There you go again, trying to establish a link between the enforcement flights and a potential tanker spill. When the reality is that there is no such link. The flights are to enforce our marine laws against anybody who would break them, and to act to alert first response personnel when anyone does. IF there ever were to be a tanker spill (which as HG points out has never happened to this point), then yes this flight program would identify it and start the reaction process in motion (which is a good thing, and one which I'm sure you applaud). But stop trying to suggest the flights are only there because of potential tanker spills, because it's simply not true. They are there to guard against ALL spills, from ANY source. Not just tankers.

If twisting the truth to serve your own argument is all the ammo you've got, then you clearly haven't got a very persuasive argument.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Drip_Torch » Mar 5th, 2018, 2:59 pm

Oh hey, so this is where the irrelevant conversations wrought with conspiracy theories go?

Just thought I’d drop in and say thanks Smurf!

I agree, the KM pipeline isn’t likely to have any effect on any rail disasters. I doubt it will do anything to limit the number of train cars loaded with oil and if anything, as I mentioned earlier, I suspect it will serve to exacerbate the situation. Dilbit is the rawest of raw products that we could possibly be shipping. The oil by rail industry seems to be moving a more refine-able product to refineries in both eastern Canada and the Untied States.

Also as has been said Russia and the US would love to see us out of the world market because it would make their exports more valuable. As a side benefit it would hurt our economy and make us desperate and much easier to deal with. In other words we would be losers big time.


My opinion, we’re loser’s big time if this project goes through as planned. We’re putting a whole lot of faith in a US controlled multinational to act in our best interests. It appears to me that they may be acting in their own best interests. Perhaps, even in the manner which you recognize as possible. What better way to keep us chained to petro chemical imports than by facilitating the export of the rawest possible product. For example, as recently as a few years ago KM reversed the flow on the Cochin pipeline system that runs from Illinois to Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. It used to flow propane down to the states, now it flows light condensates to Alberta.

I don’t have any parents that work in the industry, nor neighbours than can give me the inside scoop on the inner workings. I don’t hate the industry either. The drip torch runs on gas and diesel. I have far more time on a sea ray than a plastic necky.

Experience wise, I can tell you about how the industry can pit people against each other. I can tell you about the incredible hardship politicians, and their families, can encounter when working for, or against the industry. I can tell you about the emergency preparedness protocols and evolutions. I can tell you about the thrill you feel when you approach a flange, pump, tank, or pool fire. I can also tell you about one of the best paid days I’ve ever worked, (spoiler alert – KM wrote the cheque) but why would I?

All I’ve been trying to tell you is that Kinder Morgan, might not have BC or Alberta’s best interests at heart with this. Really, Kinder Morgan has to act in a manner that looks after kinder morgan and everything about this plan suggests to me that it has been doing exactly that.

You want to believe! I get that, and I want to believe as well, but I’m not blind to the fact that 66 million people on this planet, are on the move today and most of them are from countries that we would view as having incredible oil wealth.

Extractivism, as a standalone isn’t sustainable, but the economy that surrounds it can be – with good governance.

Bickering isn't my thing, so see you on the other side.

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Re: Pipelines

Postby Merry » Mar 5th, 2018, 3:31 pm

I don't give a darn about KM, or any other oil company for that matter. What I do care about is the Canadian economy in general, and BC's economy in particular. Why? Because I enjoy the lower taxes and more Government Services that a healthy economy delivers.

I consider the revenues from Alberta oil and gas to be even more important these days, in this period of NAFTA uncertainty and the resulting negative impact on our overall economy. Because I see the revenues from the oil and gas as being a good way to offset many of the losses generated by Trump's current intransigence and bully tactics. Besides, if we are in a strong financial position, it will be easier for us to stand up to his bullying.

Trump is putting "America First" and it's time we took a page out of his book and put "Canada First". Which means keeping our economy healthy, while simultaneously making sure we have strong environmental and labour laws that are rigidly enforced. And if a company (American or Canadian, I don't care which) violates those laws, then the penalties should be severe.

I've often questioned Governments willingness to enact and enforce such laws, and will continue to do so. But that doesn't mean I think we should shut industry down altogether. Because that would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 5th, 2018, 4:19 pm

Cactusflower wrote:^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.


What part of this comment do you not understand, Merry? Did I not state that I'm happy that Transport Canada is doing this? Yes, I did. Did I say that they were doing it simply to look for oil tanker spills? No, I did not.

I asked just one simple question: Why do the pro-bitumen tanker people always maintain that there has never been and never will be an oil spill on the Pacific coast? So far, nobody has been able to answer that question.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby alanjh595 » Mar 5th, 2018, 5:18 pm

Cactusflower wrote:
Cactusflower wrote:^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.


What part of this comment do you not understand, Merry? Did I not state that I'm happy that Transport Canada is doing this? Yes, I did. Did I say that they were doing it simply to look for oil tanker spills? No, I did not.

I asked just one simple question: Why do the pro-bitumen tanker people always maintain that there has never been and never will be an oil spill on the Pacific coast? So far, nobody has been able to answer that question.


Why do you insist on saying, that there WILL be a spill in the future?
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Hurtlander » Mar 5th, 2018, 5:32 pm

Jason Kennedy didn’t think this through very carefully https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#220338
BC NDP would most likely retaliate by placing a toll on shipments of Alberta oil and grain traveling by train thru BC to the shipping ports... I’m not sure how stopping the flow of Alberta oil through the Transmountain pipeline will help the Alberta economy. Maybe Alberta chose the wrong guy to lead their Conservative party, or whatever they now call themselves.
Kennedy should let the Feds settle this since it’s within their jurisdiction rather than make things even worse.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Jflem1983 » Mar 5th, 2018, 6:06 pm

Hurtlander wrote:Jason Kennedy didn’t think this through very carefully https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#220338
BC NDP would most likely retaliate by placing a toll on shipments of Alberta oil and grain traveling by train thru BC to the shipping ports... I’m not sure how stopping the flow of Alberta oil through the Transmountain pipeline will help the Alberta economy. Maybe Alberta chose the wrong guy to lead their Conservative party, or whatever they now call themselves.
Kennedy should let the Feds settle this since it’s within their jurisdiction rather than make things even worse.



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Re: Pipelines

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 5th, 2018, 6:35 pm

alanjh595 wrote:
Cactusflower wrote:^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.


Why do you insist on saying, that there WILL be a spill in the future?


Because history proves that it will.......and it has. The Exxon Valdez is just one example.Google 'oil spills' for many more.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Hurtlander » Mar 5th, 2018, 7:00 pm

Hurtlander wrote:Jason Kennedy didn’t think this through very carefully https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#220338
BC NDP would most likely retaliate by placing a toll on shipments of Alberta oil and grain traveling by train thru BC to the shipping ports... I’m not sure how stopping the flow of Alberta oil through the Transmountain pipeline will help the Alberta economy. Maybe Alberta chose the wrong guy to lead their Conservative party, or whatever they now call themselves.
Kennedy should let the Feds settle this since it’s within their jurisdiction rather than make things even worse.


Cactusflower, the point I was trying to make is that Alberta’s legal argument for pushing thru the pipeline is that interprovincial pipelines are under federal jurisdiction, and Ottawa gave the pipeline the thumbs up....
Kenney if elected the next Alberta premier can no more legally place a toll on BC natural gas being piped thru his province, than BC can legally stop the KM expansion. Alberta won’t be doing itself any favours if it also starts breaking the law..
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Merry » Mar 5th, 2018, 7:25 pm

Hurtlander wrote:Jason Kenney didn’t think this through very carefully https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#220338

You can say that again; the man's an idiot if he thinks that's a good idea. But I suspect he's simply trolling for votes and has absolutely no intention of doing any such thing. It would make me think twice about voting for him though if I lived in Alberta, because starting that kind of an inter-provincial trade war would hurt everybody - including Albertans.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby Smurf » Mar 5th, 2018, 7:27 pm

CF maybe if you started answering some of our questions someone would answer some of yours. I gave you information you wanted but you have totally ignored the questions I have asked. WHY?
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have of changing others.

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Re: Pipelines

Postby Merry » Mar 5th, 2018, 7:34 pm

CF - every time you board a plane, it MIGHT crash. Ditto for every time you get in a car. But the point is that the chance of such a thing happening is so small that the benefit makes you willing to take the risk.

That doesn't mean you take the risk lightly. Rather you take precautions to mitigate that risk by making sure the vehicle you're travelling in has been well maintained, wear your seat belt, and obey the traffic laws. But, having taken all the necessary precautions, you then ride in said vehicle because the benefit outweighs the albeit calculated risk.

If we "throw the baby out with the bathwater" every time there's any kind of risk involved, we'd never get anything done. Every single industrial development in the country carries with it a certain level of risk, which is why we have strict laws about safety standards and so forth. That doesn't mean bad things don't sometimes happen, but we take the necessary steps to try to make sure they don't, or that if they do we can deal with it as effectively as possible.

Using your logic we should immediately close down every industrial development in Canada, close all the airports, railway lines, and marine traffic. Because they MIGHT result in some kind of environmental disaster if something were to go wrong. But if we were to do that, life as we know it would not continue. And I doubt most folks would be in favour of that.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby alanjh595 » Mar 5th, 2018, 8:02 pm

alanjh595 wrote:
Cactusflower wrote:^^I'm very happy to see that Transport Canada is doing this. I just wondered why people are still claiming that a KMX tanker spill will not happen in B.C.'s coastal waters.


Why do you insist on saying, that there WILL be a spill in the future?


Cactusflower wrote:Because history proves that it will.......and it has. The Exxon Valdez is just one example.Google 'oil spills' for many more.


Many things have changed since the Valdez spill. For one, there are no more single hulled tankers. Not one spill has happened since.
Get over it already. That horse is dead, stop beating it.

If you really want to get technical about it, there wasn't a spill on the West coast for 2000 years before that one.
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