Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 16th, 2018, 12:41 pm

alanjh595 wrote:What suggestions do you have to transport this product to refineries for processing?


I've given this a lot of thought, and the only solution I can find to this problem is to shut down the Alberta oil sands and start reclaiming the land the multinational oil and gas companies have destroyed. Fossil fuel products are being replaced by other, more environmentally-friendly products. The Alberta government has seen the writing on the wall and are diversifying at a rapid rate. Of course there will still be a need for some oil and gas products, but unless I've been misinformed, there are still some conventional oil wells in Alberta to keep Canada supplied domestically for the foreseeable future.

The biggest worry in Alberta and the rest of Canada seems to be the export market. I suppose we're going to have to go back to the era when goods were actually manufactured domestically rather than having everything imported from foreign countries. It's not going to be easy because we've been infected with the globalization bug, but when you look at our import/export ratio, it doesn't take a masters in economy to know what's wrong. How to fix it is the problem. The first thing we have to do, IMHO, is stop giving all our raw resources to other countries who then refine them and sell them back to us as a finished product.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Ka-El » Jan 16th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Cactusflower wrote: I've given this a lot of thought, and the only solution I can find to this problem is to shut down the Alberta oil sands and start reclaiming the land the multinational oil and gas companies have destroyed.

:spitcoffee: :laugh:

Cactusflower wrote: Fossil fuel products are being replaced by other, more environmentally-friendly products.

Stop using your computer/phone and start walking to work.
If only there were a national test for stupidity.

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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Ka-El » Jan 16th, 2018, 12:45 pm

Cactusflower wrote: I suppose we're going to have to go back to the era when goods were actually manufactured domestically rather than having everything imported from foreign countries. It's not going to be easy because we've been infected with the globalization bug, but when you look at our import/export ratio, it doesn't take a masters in economy to know what's wrong.

No, but high school economics would be a good start :smt045
If only there were a national test for stupidity.

"How much ammo do yall have. I figure i probs got at least 10k rounds of various calibre .
Gonna stock up again this spring. Try to have 25000 rds. Yup, feeling manly now."

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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jan 16th, 2018, 12:56 pm

Cactusflower wrote:
I've given this a lot of thought, and the only solution I can find to this problem is to shut down the Alberta oil sands


Yup. It's always "kill thousands of jobs and destroy the economy". That's the only option these guys ever come up with. There is never any middle ground, or thought of the consequences of their actions.

and start reclaiming the land the multinational oil and gas companies have destroyed.


Which multi-nationals? Suncor and Syncrude are not multi-nationals. Maybe do some research instead of just swallowing the garbage and lies you are fed by David Suzuki and the Rainforest Action Network.

Also - how can you reclaim something that has already been destroyed? Unless you are employing hyperbole and fear-mongering nonsense....oh right....

That being said, I do agree with you on this one in terms of cleaning things up. Clean them up, but for goodness sakes, don't be a giant idiot and "shut down" the oil sands! That's just stupid!

Fossil fuel products are being replaced by other, more environmentally-friendly products.


Like what? Nuclear power? What the hell are you talking about? This is such a broad-based comment with zero actual evidence given, that only the truly gullible and generally stupid would swallow.

The Alberta government has seen the writing on the wall and are diversifying at a rapid rate.


What? How? What are they doing?

Of course there will still be a need for some oil and gas products,


Glad that you at least can admit that - otherwise, where would you get your I-Pad and keyboard to type your fear-mongering clap-trap????

Yes, "some oil and gas products" will be needed, including natural gas, a clean-burning miracle fuel that does not harm to the environment whatsoever. Canadians need this fuel to survive our really cold winters, or they would die. Horrible deaths.

but unless I've been misinformed, there are still some conventional oil wells in Alberta to keep Canada supplied domestically for the foreseeable future.


You are misinformed. Currently a lot of Canada's oil is supplied by the Middle East and Africa, because dumb-dumb enviro-nuts won't let pipeline companies build pipelines from Alberta to Eastern Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada- ... -1.1137804

Also - oil wells deplete. So to keep supply going, continual drilling is required. This requires capital. If you suddenly through some brainless and stupid communist action, shut down a giant swath of the oil sands, costing investors multi-billions, they are going to be far too scared to invest in a jurisdiction run by such stupid people. They will walk away, like they've done in Venezuela. Then we will have no oil production, anywhere in Canada. That's how it works.

The biggest worry in Alberta and the rest of Canada seems to be the export market.


It's not really a "worry", it's an economic fact. Because the ability to ship Canada's oil is so limited, due to brainless enviro-nuts always opposing pipelines, the price that Canada gets for our oil is lower than the world market price. So once again, not really a "worry", more of an economic issue. The higher the price we get, the more taxes and royalties are paid, and the more welfare enviro-nuts can receive for sitting on their butts and doing nothing, other than mindlessly fear-mongering. It's win-win!

I suppose we're going to have to go back to the era when goods were actually manufactured domestically rather than having everything imported from foreign countries. It's not going to be easy because we've been infected with the globalization bug, but when you look at our import/export ratio, it doesn't take a masters in economy to know what's wrong. How to fix it is the problem. The first thing we have to do, IMHO, is stop giving all our raw resources to other countries who then refine them and sell them back to us as a finished product.


Blah blah blah here we go. Yes, let's insulate our country and only allow the market for all of our Canadian companies to be limited to only 33 million people. Watch our GDP plummet to this side of dick all. Brilliant plan. Just the worst idea in a post full of really really bad and failed ideas.

I also like how enviro-nuts want oil to be processed domestically, but then grab signs and protest every time someone wants to build a new refinery. There is no finer example of pure disgusting hypocrisy.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby alanjh595 » Jan 16th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Cactusflower wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:What suggestions do you have to transport this product to refineries for processing?


I've given this a lot of thought, and the only solution I can find to this problem is to shut down the Alberta oil sands and start reclaiming the land the multinational oil and gas companies have destroyed. Fossil fuel products are being replaced by other, more environmentally-friendly products. The Alberta government has seen the writing on the wall and are diversifying at a rapid rate. Of course there will still be a need for some oil and gas products, but unless I've been misinformed, there are still some conventional oil wells in Alberta to keep Canada supplied domestically for the foreseeable future.

The biggest worry in Alberta and the rest of Canada seems to be the export market. I suppose we're going to have to go back to the era when goods were actually manufactured domestically rather than having everything imported from foreign countries. It's not going to be easy because we've been infected with the globalization bug, but when you look at our import/export ratio, it doesn't take a masters in economy to know what's wrong. How to fix it is the problem. The first thing we have to do, IMHO, is stop giving all our raw resources to other countries who then refine them and sell them back to us as a finished product.


Okay then, thank you for your input. I will try and refrain, the best I can, from berating your comment.
Canada is a "resource" laden country. We have lots of many things that the rest of the world would love to have, oil (in every form), being one of them.
We really don't have much else to sell to support our population and keep us all employed. China is a manufacturing country. They have done very well at it, because labour is cheap over there. If other countries don't/can't buy our oil/gas, then they will buy it from other countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Regardless of where the world gets what they want/need, Canada's citizens will still have to buy gasoline at a much higher price than what we are paying today.
Simple math is that we deduct the profits of our oil sales from the cost of importing gas from other countries. If we were to take the profit of our oil sales out of the equation, we would need to spend more for gas and no longer enjoy the money generated by selling our oil products to other countries.
Therefore, instead of paying $1/ltr. for gas after selling our oil for $0.40/ltr. we now have to pay $1.40/ltr. while we are sitting on top of a very large pile of $0.40 oil in the ground. AND just to top it all off, that would put 100's of 1000's of people out of good paying jobs.
Manufacturing jobs in places like China pay about $5.00/day, Try and find just one Canadian citizen that will work for that money. Why do you think that 96.7% of our products like toasters, cel phones and computers come from China? Because we get paid too much, our cost of living is much higher, and our quality of life is so much better than these other countries, that are still burning coal in their stoves that they use for cooking and heating their 1 room stable, that they share with their 3 children. And 10 of these homes share a "squat" toilet with others. I am not exaggerating, I have been there (twice), and I have photos to prove it.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Ka-El » Jan 16th, 2018, 2:03 pm

I suppose we're going to have to go back to the era when goods were actually manufactured domestically rather than having everything imported from foreign countries. It's not going to be easy because we've been infected with the globalization bug, but when you look at our import/export ratio, it doesn't take a masters in economy to know what's wrong. How to fix it is the problem.

Well for starters, we don't want to close our country off from global trade, that include imports and exports. No, a person does not need a Masters in Economics to understand this would be a disaster. Take a look south in a couple more years to see just how well that is going to work (assuming that madman is not stopped in time).

The first thing we have to do, IMHO, is stop giving all our raw resources to other countries who then refine them and sell them back to us as a finished product

... and then in the next breath protest pipelines that would allow us to refine our crude here in Canada for export. Perfect.
If only there were a national test for stupidity.

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Gonna stock up again this spring. Try to have 25000 rds. Yup, feeling manly now."

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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby alanjh595 » Jan 16th, 2018, 3:15 pm

Now Cactusflower, I hope that you can appreciate that I, personally have NOT made any attempt to disrespect you or your opinions on this matter, (I don't speak for others).
I was calmly and patiently asking for your ideas and opinions on this topic and looking for your input as to what YOU might see as a solution to your own objections.
I am still interested, if you can overlook the comments of the hecklers in the crowd to reply.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 16th, 2018, 3:58 pm

alanjh595 wrote:Now Cactusflower, I hope that you can appreciate that I, personally have NOT made any attempt to disrespect you or your opinions on this matter, (I don't speak for others).
I was calmly and patiently asking for your ideas and opinions on this topic and looking for your input as to what YOU might see as a solution to your own objections.
I am still interested, if you can overlook the comments of the hecklers in the crowd to reply.


I'm going to begin by quoting something that Ka-El posted at 2:03 pm: "....and then in the next breath protest pipelines that would allow us to refine our crude here in Canada for export".

Now you see why some people are so pro-pipeline. They actually believe that the heavy bitumen is going to be refined before being loaded on the tankers. Nothing is further from the truth. Where did they find this misinformation? Even CAPP knows better than to put lies like that in their newsletters. Even most of the dilbit that's coming down the pipe now is being refined in the US and sold back to us. There's only one small refinery left on the lower mainland and its not equipped to refine heavy bitumen.

Sorry to inform you that I have no solution to the problems that globalization has wrought.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Ka-El » Jan 16th, 2018, 4:22 pm

Cactusflower wrote: Sorry to inform you that I have no solution to the problems that globalization has wrought.

Complete the pipeline to the refineries in the east and become a globalization power player. :smt045

p.s. the only thing that is stopping us from refining our own crude for export are the naysayers.
If only there were a national test for stupidity.

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Gonna stock up again this spring. Try to have 25000 rds. Yup, feeling manly now."

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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 16th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Ka-El wrote:
Cactusflower wrote: Sorry to inform you that I have no solution to the problems that globalization has wrought.

Complete the pipeline to the refineries in the east and become a globalization power player. :smt045

p.s. the only thing that is stopping us from refining our own crude for export are the naysayers.


And the naysayers are the oil companies who refuse to refine the bitumen on site because it negatively affects their bottom line. They know that most provinces will not accept the risk of having dilbit crossing their borders. But they found willing politicians in Ottawa and BC (before the last provincial election) and are convinced they can bully the new BC government into accepting their project. Trouble is, they weren't counting on several First Nations taking them to court over the pipeline/tanker plan.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby alanjh595 » Jan 16th, 2018, 5:43 pm

Cactusflower wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:Now Cactusflower, I hope that you can appreciate that I, personally have NOT made any attempt to disrespect you or your opinions on this matter, (I don't speak for others).
I was calmly and patiently asking for your ideas and opinions on this topic and looking for your input as to what YOU might see as a solution to your own objections.
I am still interested, if you can overlook the comments of the hecklers in the crowd to reply.


I'm going to begin by quoting something that Ka-El posted at 2:03 pm: "....and then in the next breath protest pipelines that would allow us to refine our crude here in Canada for export".

Now you see why some people are so pro-pipeline. They actually believe that the heavy bitumen is going to be refined before being loaded on the tankers. Nothing is further from the truth. Where did they find this misinformation? Even CAPP knows better than to put lies like that in their newsletters. Even most of the dilbit that's coming down the pipe now is being refined in the US and sold back to us. There's only one small refinery left on the lower mainland and its not equipped to refine heavy bitumen.

Sorry to inform you that I have no solution to the problems that globalization has wrought.


Nevermind the others for right now, just talk to me.

I have read all of your information and researched your sources to the bitter end. I will refrain at this point to discredit them and their emotionally driven suppositions. Generally speaking, what human nature desires is a "magic cure-all pill".
There is no such pill, healing and recovery takes time.

I was born and raised on the BC coast (Richmond/Steveston) and understand the importance and the superior taste of Wild Pacific Sockeye salmon (My personal favorite), I was also very privileged to be able to pet "Skana" at the Vancouver Aquarium,(I actually cried when she died). I do have very strong affiliations with the sealife of BC.

BUT........even though I have these very had personal close contacts with these beautiful creatures, I must not deprive so many citizens of Canada from making a living based upon "maybes/possibilities/perhaps's of catastrophic failures.

At some point we have to rely upon the greater good of the many and show some faith in the huge advancements in modern technologies to protect our beloved common goal of preserving and protecting the things that we cherish so much. All of the combined scientific minds are on the same side and their interests are the same as ours, give them a chance. If they screw up they will fix it and make life much better for these animals.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby JagXKR » Jan 16th, 2018, 7:24 pm

Cactusflower wrote: Trouble is, they weren't counting on several First Nations taking them to court over the pipeline/tanker plan.


Huh? Any company in Canada is expecting one or more First Nations to take them to court. It is inevitable. What they don't expect is no opposition. That would be awesome if it ever happened, but alas we can only dream.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 16th, 2018, 10:41 pm

alanjh595 wrote:
Cactusflower wrote:
I'm going to begin by quoting something that Ka-El posted at 2:03 pm: "....and then in the next breath protest pipelines that would allow us to refine our crude here in Canada for export".

Now you see why some people are so pro-pipeline. They actually believe that the heavy bitumen is going to be refined before being loaded on the tankers. Nothing is further from the truth. Where did they find this misinformation? Even CAPP knows better than to put lies like that in their newsletters. Even most of the dilbit that's coming down the pipe now is being refined in the US and sold back to us. There's only one small refinery left on the lower mainland and its not equipped to refine heavy bitumen.

Sorry to inform you that I have no solution to the problems that globalization has wrought.


Nevermind the others for right now, just talk to me.

I have read all of your information and researched your sources to the bitter end. I will refrain at this point to discredit them and their emotionally driven suppositions. Generally speaking, what human nature desires is a "magic cure-all pill".
There is no such pill, healing and recovery takes time.

I was born and raised on the BC coast (Richmond/Steveston) and understand the importance and the superior taste of Wild Pacific Sockeye salmon (My personal favorite), I was also very privileged to be able to pet "Skana" at the Vancouver Aquarium,(I actually cried when she died). I do have very strong affiliations with the sealife of BC.

BUT........even though I have these very had personal close contacts with these beautiful creatures, I must not deprive so many citizens of Canada from making a living based upon "maybes/possibilities/perhaps's of catastrophic failures.

At some point we have to rely upon the greater good of the many and show some faith in the huge advancements in modern technologies to protect our beloved common goal of preserving and protecting the things that we cherish so much. All of the combined scientific minds are on the same side and their interests are the same as ours, give them a chance. If they screw up they will fix it and make life much better for these animals.


You're right, there is no magic pill. But stop and think for a moment. How did Alberta survive before they discovered bitumen? How did Canada survive without it? To be honest, I think our nation and her people were much better of 100 years ago than we are now. We were better off 50 years ago than we are now. Maybe you're too young to remember the time when a family could live very comfortably on the salary of just one family member, when it was safe to send your kid off to school without a bodyguard, when kids were allowed to be kids.

Sorry, I shouldn't get started on how good it was in 'the old days', but you mentioned 'the greater good of the many', and I'm not convinced that risking a healthy environment to make billionaires out of CEOs and shareholders is a good description of that phrase. And I'm sure you've noticed all the extreme weather phenomena that our planet has been experiencing, and how they are escalating beyond belief.

Our oceans are dying, too. If you love wild Pacific salmon, and you cried when Skana died, imagine how you're going to feel when there are no more wild salmon, and Skana's brothers and sisters are all dead and rotting on the beach somewhere because there home has been destroyed. Actually, it's being destroyed as we write, even without the dilbit spills.

But we have a chance to turn things around. We can stop digging bitumen out of the ground, mixing it with volatile chemicals and shipping it across our land and our oceans. We can stop consuming crap we don't need, and throwing all kinds of plastic garbage into landfills, where it eventually ends up in our aquifers, rivers, and finally, the ocean.

The planet is grossly over-populated, and people are starving. Countries like Canada, with big hearts and small brains keep bringing them in, giving them food and shelter, trying to create jobs for them so the nation can cope with the strain on our economy.

You're lucky that you have more faith in humanity than I. I don't believe for a minute that if......no, not if......when they screw up they will fix it and make life much better for our animals. And not just the animals, but humans as well are going to pay the price. We can't eat, drink, or breathe money, alan.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby alanjh595 » Jan 17th, 2018, 6:53 am

I have taken your quote and added my reply in BLUE for ease of reading.
Next time it would be better if you broke your diatribe up into small, more manageable quotes. Perhaps one paragraph each? It would make it easier to reply to and read. thx
Cactusflower wrote:You're right, there is no magic pill. But stop and think for a moment. I can't help but stop to think that as you use your petroleum based computer to type out your messages that you are just as responsible for being a part of the problem that you are so opposed to. Likewise with the car that you drive, watch the TV news on, and even the plastic pen you sign a cheque with. You are touching and using oil based products every day of your life. Can you live without them?How did Alberta survive before they discovered bitumen? They were and still are an agriculture based province, but even for them to produce the mass amount of food that we harvest send all over the world to feed other countries that can't survive without the food we provide, would just all starve to death. Modern farming relies upon oil products for the tractors and to fuel the cargo ships to get that food everywhere it needs to go. How did Canada survive without it? We wouldn't, and 30% of the worlds population would also starve and become extinct.
Do you want your name on the list that lives on in perpetuity as being a proponent of global famine?
To be honest, I think our nation and her people were much better of 100 years ago than we are now. We were better off 50 years ago than we are now. Maybe you're too young to remember the time when a family could live very comfortably on the salary of just one family member, when it was safe to send your kid off to school without a bodyguard, when kids were allowed to be kids.The children of this generation will never fully understand how great our lives were back then. Even with what they have today, it is still not enough for them and they will look back at how we lived and call us barbarians. Most of them will never catch a fish, kill it and fillet it either. 200 years from now there may be need for oil products anymore. Transportation will not be on 4 wheels made of rubber coming in contact with asphalt any more and they will look back upon us like we look back at the "horse and buggy" times. No, there is no perfect answer....yet, but until we humans come up with something better, and we will, this is the best that we have. We can not stop progress, we can't even slow it down. Quote from Star Trek, "Resistance is Futile".

Sorry, I shouldn't get started on how good it was in 'the old days', but you mentioned 'the greater good of the many', and I'm not convinced that risking a healthy environment to make billionaires out of CEOs and shareholders is a good description of that phrase. And I'm sure you've noticed all the extreme weather phenomena that our planet has been experiencing, and how they are escalating beyond belief.

Our oceans are dying, too. If you love wild Pacific salmon, and you cried when Skana died, imagine how you're going to feel when there are no more wild salmon, and Skana's brothers and sisters are all dead and rotting on the beach somewhere because there home has been destroyed. Actually, it's being destroyed as we write, even without the dilbit spills. We currently don't have the answers to these problems, but without progress, it may never happen. Scientific research takes money, it takes a lot of money. Science is where the answers will be found and if we cut off the research funding that is generated from oil revenues, then all of the sea life is destined to become extinct. That is a guarantee. Humans don't go backwards, we are not hardwired to go back, we will only go forwards.

But we have a chance to turn things around. We can stop digging bitumen out of the ground, mixing it with volatile chemicals and shipping it across our land and our oceans. We can stop consuming crap we don't need, and throwing all kinds of plastic garbage into landfills, where it eventually ends up in our aquifers, rivers, and finally, the ocean. Yes, sort of. We are now moving forward to stop single use plastic bags, but there have been huge improvements as to how we deal with our waste. Sewage is treated and brought back to consumable use (Example: The International Space Station). Open pit city garbage dumps are now lined (with an oil based rubber) liner where the water is collected and treated and made safe again.
The methane and other gases that garbage gives off is also collected and used to power electrical plants in and around the dump sights. All of these are advancements to protect our environment have been learned from mistakes made in the past. If we didn't have these mistakes, we would have never found the solution and without oil based products we wouldn't be able to fix these problems.


The planet is grossly over-populated, and people are starving. Countries like Canada, with big hearts and small brains keep bringing them in, giving them food and shelter, trying to create jobs for them so the nation can cope with the strain on our economy.
It's called Humanitarian Aid. We are the only species on this planet that exhibit this characteristic. Yes,
sometimes, I believe that we don't allow Mother Nature take it's course and just allow natural selection. But, alas we are humans and that is what makes us different. Right now, there are so many other species that are depending on us to find the answers to save their lives. Once again, in order to do this, we will need oil based products to help them. We will need our trucks with rubber tires and gasoline to get to their homes, and computers to help us study them to find out what is wrong and do the computer modeling experiments without killing and dissecting their bodies to find the information we need.

You're lucky that you have more faith in humanity than I. I don't believe for a minute that if......no, not if......when they screw up they will fix it and make life much better for our animals. And not just the animals, but humans as well are going to pay the price. We can't eat, drink, or breathe money, alan. No we can't eat and breathe money, but it takes money to find solutions to providing better and more plentiful food and water. Sometimes faith is all that you have left because without it, we are destined to fail.
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Re: Dilbit spill could hurt salmon

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jan 17th, 2018, 9:52 am

Cactusflower wrote: To be honest, I think our nation and her people were much better of 100 years ago than we are now. We were better off 50 years ago than we are now.


This is a myth perpetuated by the extreme left, and it's total and utter crap. Just pure crap.




Maybe you're too young to remember the time when a family could live very comfortably on the salary of just one family member, when it was safe to send your kid off to school without a bodyguard, when kids were allowed to be kids.


Where do you live? Cartagena? Juarez? Good grief your hyperbole, negativity and fear-mongering, all baseless BTW, is just off the charts. I know lots of families who right now are living comfortably on one salary. And none of them have bodyguards. Their kids definitely are being allowed to be kids, much more than I ever got to be.
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