Ban ocean fish farms?

The forum's Skid Road. DO NOT ENTER unless you're ready for a squabble.

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby alanjh595 » Mar 4th, 2018, 8:31 am

Aquaculture in British Columbia is managed by the FEDERAL Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Aquaculture in British Columbia

Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) is responsible for regulation of most aspects of the aquaculture industry in BC and issues licences for marine finfish, shellfish and freshwater (or land-based) operations. Licences stipulate the volume and species that may be produced at a site and outline requirements for fish health, sea lice levels, fish containment and waste control.

The Province of BC issues tenures where operations take place in either the marine or freshwater environment, licenses marine plant cultivation, and manages business aspects of aquaculture such as work place health and safety.


http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/index-eng.html
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
User avatar
alanjh595
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3867
Likes: 1539 posts
Liked in: 2400 posts
Joined: Oct 20th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 12:07 pm

alanjh595 wrote:Aquaculture in British Columbia is managed by the FEDERAL Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Aquaculture in British Columbia

Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) is responsible for regulation of most aspects of the aquaculture industry in BC and issues licences for marine finfish, shellfish and freshwater (or land-based) operations. Licences stipulate the volume and species that may be produced at a site and outline requirements for fish health, sea lice levels, fish containment and waste control.

The Province of BC issues tenures where operations take place in either the marine or freshwater environment, licenses marine plant cultivation, and manages business aspects of aquaculture such as work place health and safety.


http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/index-eng.html

Try reading the links you provide.
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 4th, 2018, 12:09 pm

I was just reading an interesting scientific analysis of the impact of fish farms on wild salmon. It is somewhat out of date (2008) but makes some interesting and relevant points and suggestions.

1) the impact of fish farms on wild pacific salmon is much lower than the impact on wild Atlantic salmon
2) it is the only published study I could find that compared returns in areas with fish farms against returns in areas without fish farms to establish a baseline of other influences - which showed a decline in returns of wild salmon. The decline in returns for areas with fish farms was indeed significantly greater than the decline in the returns in areas without fish farms when looking at wild pacific salmon. I looked at the math they used, and it appears sound.

Where the broader overall influences have not been factored in is the reduced pressure on wild stocks that results from having farmed fish in the marketplace, which also tends to offset some of the growth in salmon ranching, which has its own, and I would argue more deleterious effects over the long term. That question overlaps into economics, and I can see why they did not go there.

Fundamentally, salmon is becoming a luxury item for many folks. Banning fish farms would have a huge impact on supply, which would drive up the price and genuinely make salmon a luxury item only for most Canadians. At the same time, that would increase the profitability of salmon ranching, which would most likely lead to increases in salmon ranching and its deleterious effects.

Within that scientific report is an interesting compromise that offers a potential solution for BC. Don't ban the fish farms, move them. Select areas where the salmon runs have already collapsed, and utilize those areas for salmon farming.

That sounds like a reasonable solution if you take local economics and nimbyism out of the equation, but it is certainly logical.

One area that comes to mind for me is Indian Arm (extends northeast from Burrard inlet). What little salmon run is left there passes very quickly through the arm as the bait fish/feed has been virtually wiped out. It is close to markets, and easy to monitor for compliance. Fish farms could be located north of a boundary line roughly through Racoon island so as not to interfere with recreational activities (kayaking etc.).

One of the effects of concentrating fish farms in a few areas like that, is that issues like sea lice become significant fish farm economic issues. If operator A does not properly control sea lice, then that will impact operators B,C, and D etc. Plus processing plants can be set up with proper sewage treatment facilities (perhaps even composting?) readily available. (Fish carcasses make great fertilizer.)

I would suggest that instead of the sledgehammer of banning fish farms, there are ways forward - that with a little courage - can achieve a balance that benefits all except the local economies that depend on the fish farms.

Perhaps that would be more constructive outlet for the "ban the fish farms" folks. Work with FNs like the Squamish and others to identify areas where the deleterious effects would be near zero, and economic benefits can flow to FN people who can use it and others - and fish farming can still be a big contributor to the BC economy, BC government revenues, and nutritious food for folks.

Move the fish farms - don't ban them.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis
hobbyguy
Guru
 
Posts: 8019
Likes: 2207 posts
Liked in: 8393 posts
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 12:38 pm

^^"Move the fish farms, don't ban them." I totally agree, but do not move them to alternative sea-pen locations. Get them out of the water and up on land. This morning, Global did a segment on the banning of floating fish farms in Puget sound, and asked our Minister of Agriculture if a ban was planned in B.C. as well. I, for one, was very disappointed in her reply. She merely said her government was still consulting First Nations about that(everyone knows where THEY stand on floating fish farms!), and they have to consider the cost of relocating the fish farms on land.

Why should our government care how much money it costs for Marine Harvest et al to get their crap out of our coastal waters? There are other fish farms operating on land and have been for years. If Marine Harvest can't afford to move their operations onto land, then they can pull up stakes and go back to Norway.

Oh wait, they can't, because Norway doesn't want them back. Who cares? We don't want them either.
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 4th, 2018, 1:11 pm

Cactusflower wrote:^^"Move the fish farms, don't ban them." I totally agree, but do not move them to alternative sea-pen locations. Get them out of the water and up on land. This morning, Global did a segment on the banning of floating fish farms in Puget sound, and asked our Minister of Agriculture if a ban was planned in B.C. as well. I, for one, was very disappointed in her reply. She merely said her government was still consulting First Nations about that(everyone knows where THEY stand on floating fish farms!), and they have to consider the cost of relocating the fish farms on land.

Why should our government care how much money it costs for Marine Harvest et al to get their crap out of our coastal waters? There are other fish farms operating on land and have been for years. If Marine Harvest can't afford to move their operations onto land, then they can pull up stakes and go back to Norway.

Oh wait, they can't, because Norway doesn't want them back. Who cares? We don't want them either.


Once again you take an absolutist position without reference to pragmatic realities. Onshore fish farms are incredibly expensive and are, at this time, entirely uneconomic.

Fish farms in places like Indian Arm would do no harm (the harm has already been done there). Therefore, give the fish farmers economically viable options like that, then work with them to look at developing closed sea pens - or even semi closed sea pens as economic balances. (Pens closed during migratory periods only would induce lower costs, the effects of doing that on wild salmon mortality are, as yet unclear, but it appears logical that would be a benefit).

Always the unbalanced sledgehammer approach from the far left, and as always, it would be destructive - not constructive.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis

The Green Barbarian likes this post.
hobbyguy
Guru
 
Posts: 8019
Likes: 2207 posts
Liked in: 8393 posts
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 1:55 pm

There's a reason Indian Arm is almost devoid of sea life. It may not have been the aquaculture industry that killed it, but it was industry, (and you know very well which industry to which I refer).

Why does the right always ignore the reality of environmental disaster due to unregulated industry when it's so obvious? Instead of moving floating fish farms into Indian Arm so that corporations like Marine Harvest et al can protect their bottom line, why not use some of our tax dollars to return Indian Arm to its previous unpolluted state?
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby alanjh595 » Mar 4th, 2018, 1:59 pm

Cactusflower wrote:There's a reason Indian Arm is almost devoid of sea life. It may not have been the aquaculture industry that killed it, but it was industry, (and you know very well which industry to which I refer).

Why does the right always ignore the reality of environmental disaster due to unregulated industry when it's so obvious? Instead of moving floating fish farms into Indian Arm so that corporations like Marine Harvest et al can protect their bottom line, why not use some of our tax dollars to return Indian Arm to its previous unpolluted state?


What credible scientific evidence do you have to support your opinion?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
User avatar
alanjh595
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3867
Likes: 1539 posts
Liked in: 2400 posts
Joined: Oct 20th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 4:33 pm

http://www.nsnews.com/news/ocean-pollut ... 1.23180133
This is just one pollution-tracking site. Google is your friend.
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Snman » Mar 4th, 2018, 5:03 pm

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance - Socrates
Snman
Übergod
 
Posts: 1000
Likes: 1064 posts
Liked in: 727 posts
Joined: Aug 6th, 2006, 6:27 am

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 6:40 pm



Thanks for getting us back on track, Snman. Good article. I think Dunn is OTL, but hey........I just had a terrific idea. Why not move all the floating fish farms to the AB tar sands tailings ponds, since we're always told how pristine those things are. Never killed any birds, so they're probably safe for fish too, right? And Lord knows they can use another resource to brag about.

flamingfingers likes this post.
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Snman » Mar 4th, 2018, 6:52 pm

Cactusflower wrote:


Thanks for getting us back on track, Snman. Good article. I think Dunn is OTL, but hey........I just had a terrific idea. Why not move all the floating fish farms to the AB tar sands tailings ponds, since we're always told how pristine those things are. Never killed any birds, so they're probably safe for fish too, right? And Lord knows they can use another resource to brag about.


You're welcome, friend. However, your comments on the tailings ponds reflects some ignorance on the issue (perhaps you've been fooled by some duck video). Your obvious distaste for all things Albertan distorts your view at times, imho. Alberta is not out to destroy BC or the environment, despite what you might think. You're clearly quite intelligent, so why not stop with the Alberta bashing? It is unbecoming of you.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance - Socrates
Snman
Übergod
 
Posts: 1000
Likes: 1064 posts
Liked in: 727 posts
Joined: Aug 6th, 2006, 6:27 am

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby Cactusflower » Mar 4th, 2018, 7:55 pm

Ouch! Please excuse my (obviously failed) attempt at humour. How can I have distaste for all things Albertan when I still have family living there? No, there is much I like about Alberta, but the 'oil' sands are not one of them. Neither is the Stampede, but that's a topic for another day. Ditto Jason Kenney and his UCP.

But you know, it's not such a bad idea to find alternative industries for Alberta. Fossil fuels are on the way out, with the exception of some petro products that will likely be around for quite some time. When I lived in the CA desert, there were all kinds of aquaculture going on. The Pacific Ocean was hundreds of miles away. Since Atlantic salmon don't belong in the Pacific Ocean anyway, why not raise them on the other side of the Rockies, so there's no chance of them getting accidentally released among our wild Pacific salmon?
Cactusflower
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3389
Likes: 1603 posts
Liked in: 712 posts
Joined: Aug 27th, 2017, 11:33 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby The Green Barbarian » Mar 5th, 2018, 8:29 am

Cactusflower wrote: Why not move all the floating fish farms to the AB tar sands tailings ponds, since we're always told how pristine those things are. Never killed any birds, so they're probably safe for fish too, right? And Lord knows they can use another resource to brag about.


I don't know what "Tar sands" are and I've only seen really stupid people use that phrase, but I'll ask you this - can salmon survive -40C temperatures? Just curious.
Not all leftists are stupid, but most stupid people are leftists.
- Dr. Don Boys
User avatar
The Green Barbarian
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 27654
Likes: 11785 posts
Liked in: 15609 posts
Joined: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:13 am

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby alanjh595 » Mar 5th, 2018, 8:30 am

The Green Barbarian wrote:
Cactusflower wrote: Why not move all the floating fish farms to the AB tar sands tailings ponds, since we're always told how pristine those things are. Never killed any birds, so they're probably safe for fish too, right? And Lord knows they can use another resource to brag about.


I don't know what "Tar sands" are and I've only seen really stupid people use that phrase, but I'll ask you this - can salmon survive -40C temperatures? Just curious.


How do you think they get frozen fish to market?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
User avatar
alanjh595
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 3867
Likes: 1539 posts
Liked in: 2400 posts
Joined: Oct 20th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Re: Ban ocean fish farms?

Postby The Green Barbarian » Mar 5th, 2018, 8:32 am

Cactusflower wrote:
But you know, it's not such a bad idea to find alternative industries for Alberta.


LIke what? It's easy to make these statements, but I'm curious to hear what "alternative industries" you would want for Alberta. And actual self-sustaining "industries", not just government subsidized garbage like "wind turbines" or "Solar panels". China already has the world lock on building these things anyway, for governments still dumb enough to blow their taxpayer cash on them, so what does that leave?

Fossil fuels are on the way out,


LOL - another empty, totally unsupportable statement. On their way out eh? Where are they going?

When I lived in the CA desert, there were all kinds of aquaculture going on. ?


Link? And if you respond "Google is your friend" I will know you are lying. AGAIN.
Not all leftists are stupid, but most stupid people are leftists.
- Dr. Don Boys

rustled likes this post.
User avatar
The Green Barbarian
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 27654
Likes: 11785 posts
Liked in: 15609 posts
Joined: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:13 am

PreviousNext

Return to Bickering Room

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 1 guest