Dan Ashton, what a guy!

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby Hurtlander » Feb 24th, 2018, 9:50 am

rustled wrote:Who said anything about absolutes?

I've seen plenty of posters here acknowledge their mistakes with "I stand corrected" or "I hadn't realized that" or "I'd never thought of it that way" or some such. These people are clearly more concerned about sharing the truth than they are about people seeing them, personally, as "always right", and that (IMO) boosts their credibility considerably. GB happens to be one of those posters, and although it's difficult to think of GB as humble ( :biggrin: ), this trait of humility is essential to anyone, politician or forum poster, who is concerned with integrity.

Posters who routinely get it wrong and usually compound this by refusing to acknowledge their errors, but instead keep plowing ahead repeating those same errors over and over, can't expect others to sit back and ignore when their posts are intentional misrepresentations or blatantly untrue. If politicians or forum posters wanted to be respected, they'd do their best to stick to the truth and acknowledge when they (very humanly) make a mistake. Anyone consistently more concerned with "pushing their agenda" or "saving face" than with their own personal integrity reaps what she sows.

This is where I lost any respect for Ashton during the school closure process, when he talked out both sides of his mouth and threw the trustees under the bus to save face. It was patently obvious he didn't want to admit the truth and didn't have the courage to lead the people of Trout Creek. IMO, anyone that unconcerned with integrity shouldn't be involved in politics.

I certainly agree that many posters here have publicly stood corrected, myself included. And yes, I’ve also seen GB stand corrected. But on many occasions I’ve seen people falsely accused of being liars. Sometimes people honestly believe in something, they feel that their beliefs are the truth, no amount of calling them liars will change that. What’s wrong with the concept of agreeing to disagree? I’m pretty certain if a bunch of us where face to face in a public setting discussing Dan Ashton or the KM expansion etc, we wouldn’t be calling each other liars, we’d be acting like adults.
Besides, there’s always the very slim, nearly impossible chance the other persons truth is the correct one.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby rustled » Feb 24th, 2018, 10:19 am

Hurtlander wrote:I certainly agree that many posters here have publicly stood corrected, myself included. And yes, I’ve also seen GB stand corrected. But on many occasions I’ve seen people falsely accused of being liars. Sometimes people honestly believe in something, they feel that their beliefs are the truth, no amount of calling them liars will change that. What’s wrong with the concept of agreeing to disagree? I’m pretty certain if a bunch of us where face to face in a public setting discussing Dan Ashton or the KM expansion etc, we wouldn’t be calling each other liars, we’d be acting like adults.

I think there are a couple of problems with agreeing to disagree. When we think of the worst things that have happened in history, they're always the result of an ideology getting out of hand and going to extremes. In another thread, I was pointed to an essay by Margaret Atwood, "Am I a bad feminist?" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e37591823/ Here's a quote from it that I think sums up a lot of what goes wrong:

In times of extremes, extremists win. Their ideology becomes a religion, anyone who doesn't puppet their views is seen as an apostate, a heretic or a traitor, and moderates in the middle are annihilated. Fiction writers are particularly suspect because they write about human beings, and people are morally ambiguous. The aim of ideology is to eliminate ambiguity.

We see this happen time and again in history, where people get caught up in a fervor and spread it until it's a wildfire out of control. I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples in today's society, where public policy is dictated by extremists who do everything they can to shut up the people who are trying to pull us back to our senses.

There's a middle ground to everything, including the school closure issue. We had a lot of very upset parents when another local school closed about 12 years ago, but most parents who started out passionately upset were able to acknowledge that it made little real sense to keep all of the area's elementary schools open. The parents and homeowners who persisted with an extreme view (it will ruin our children's lives and/or destroy our property values) DIDN'T get to call the shots.

Policy should be about what's best in the long run and in the big picture. And while policy must NEVER overlook harms done, it must NOT be based on unlikely doomsday scenarios, whether those unlikely scenarios are promoted by those with passionate belief or those with an agenda. (I've not decided where John Cook started, but it's clear where he is now; that's fodder for other threads.)

When the Trout Creek school was on the line, Ashton could have insisted on being reasonable, listening AND presenting information these people didn't really want to hear. Instead he (and the BC Liberals) pandered to the inflamed passions and actively encouraged people to continue taking an extremist view.

This, to me, is what we see all too often in politics and in postings on the forum. IMO, people who persistently post untruths should be called on it before they stir up an angry mob. Ashton validated the angry mob, and encouraged them, while throwing local politicians (who were promoting good policy over passion) under the bus.
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby normaM » Feb 24th, 2018, 10:22 am

And if all Liars actually had their pants catch on fire. :/ I agree it isn't often people change their minds when reading a differing opinion on a public forum.
Sometimes fact and opinion get blurred if we are passion it about the subject. Anyone else remember Kids in the Hall doing " It's a fact"?
But if we all held the same opinion it would make for some bland convos.
idk, re the above perhaps be better to call out in a PM rather than the piling on.
Maybe everything really is the matrix and we need Morpheus to show us the truth.
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby rustled » Feb 24th, 2018, 10:30 am

normaM wrote:And if all Liars actually had their pants catch on fire. :/ I agree it isn't often people change their minds when reading a differing opinion on a public forum.
Sometimes fact and opinion get blurred if we are passion it about the subject. Anyone else remember Kids in the Hall doing " It's a fact"?
But if we all held the same opinion it would make for some bland convos.
idk, re the above maybe it would be better to call out in a PM rather than the piling on.
Maybe everything really is the matrix and we need Morpheus to show us the truth.

Perhaps the main thing when we should consider when a post isn't true is intent. Some posters (myself included) appreciate being told they have their facts wrong. ( I had a hideous math error in one of my posts, and sure wish someone had let me know before others read it and added it to their belief system!) I'd rather they didn't PM me, but showed the error in the thread people are reading. I have no problem being told I've made a mistake, because IMO all of us arriving at the truth together really should be what discussion is all about.

I'm going off to look for the Kids in the Hall. Weren't they the Chicken Lady and Mr. Canoe Head? :biggrin:
(ETA: OMG. Found a compilation. :laugh: Now I'm crying.)

:topic: Ashton's integrity.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby Hurtlander » Feb 24th, 2018, 11:57 am

rustled wrote:Perhaps the main thing when we should consider when a post isn't true is intent. Some posters (myself included) appreciate being told they have their facts wrong.

How do you know when a post isn’t true ? Just because someone’s beliefs or ideology is different than your own is no guarantee they’re not telling the truth, they’re simply not telling your version of the truth....there’s always three sides to every debate, there’s very few absolutes in this world.
Secondly, I’ve told you on more than one occasion that your facts were wrong, you certainly didn’t appreciate it :biggrin:

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby normaM » Feb 24th, 2018, 1:03 pm

Ah yes, the chicken lady :)
Don't know too many ppl who like being told they are wrong. Lucky I've never had that happen to myself :p
Didn't even really know anything about him before this thread
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby rustled » Feb 24th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Hurtlander wrote:
rustled wrote:Perhaps the main thing when we should consider when a post isn't true is intent. Some posters (myself included) appreciate being told they have their facts wrong.

How do you know when a post isn’t true ? Just because someone’s beliefs or ideology is different than your own is no guarantee they’re not telling the truth, they’re simply not telling your version of the truth....there’s always three sides to every debate, there’s very few absolutes in this world.
Secondly, I’ve told you on more than one occasion that your facts were wrong, you certainly didn’t appreciate it :biggrin:

Please, let me know where so I can correct it.

I'm wondering, though: Have you told me my facts were wrong, or that my beliefs were wrong, or that you felt I was prioritizing things incorrectly? For example, in other threads I've posted some facts regarding ethanol or the environmental cost of wind farms, and I've asserted that we're prioritizing our resources incorrectly, and I've shared my belief people should take far more responsibility for the consequences of their actions. People don't generally show any interest in the facts (although they often downplay their consequences quite magnificently using trite doomsday predictions and "it's for the greater good", which I'm sure you'd agree moves us from harsh facts about poor people and environmental destruction back to the hazier realm of belief). But posters pro and con are generally quite enthusiastic about sharing an absolutist/extremist position regarding prioritization of resources (see "doomsday prediction" and "it's for the greater good".

Often, we do know when a post is not true (examples being utter nonsense in the Site C thread about how much food is grown in the Peace, utter nonsense about when the shovels hit the ground for the Penticton hospital expansion or who decided to include Merritt in the Coquihalla project or how much a single provincial campsite cost, etc., in the election thread, etc.) Just as we very often do know when a politician is bending and twisting the truth to suit their own agenda. Ashton used this "not really lying, just not really telling the truth" technique with the school closure issue, and may well be using half-truths around the real estate tax as well, for the same reason: he clearly has an agenda.

We all make errors sometimes, that's only human, but when someone continues to repeat an error even when it's obvious they're wrong, the intent is obviously to lie.

:topic: Whether it's Ashton, any other politician, or a poster on a forum, when we're presented with contradictory or inflammatory information it behooves us to find out more before we repeat it. And IMO, if we know something is flat out wrong and likely to lead people to support bad policy, it's not really appropriate to stay silent and let the lie stand.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby The Green Barbarian » Feb 24th, 2018, 2:26 pm

Hurtlander wrote:Sure, but who the :cuss: are you to determine that ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY whose opinion is different than yours is a liar, .


This is just silly. If you don't want to listen or do any work on your own to understand what I am talking about fine, but this is just laziness, and pretty pathetic. I do think that people whose opinions differ from mine, who haven't done their homework are pretty stupid, sure, but when you lie, constantly, and give false information about Site C (ie - ALL the farmland in the Peace is going to be gone - that kind of lie) and KM pipeline, and are found to be blatantly lying, and you just keep going, well shame on you. No one should defend such behavior. This is the stuff of dictatorships and Orwell.
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby The Green Barbarian » Feb 24th, 2018, 2:28 pm

rustled wrote:
I'm going off to look for the Kids in the Hall. Weren't they the Chicken Lady and Mr. Canoe Head? :biggrin:
(ETA: OMG. Found a compilation. :laugh: Now I'm crying.)

:topic: Ashton's integrity.


Mr. Canoe Head was 4 on the Floor - by the Frantics. Used to love listening to them on Sundays on CBC radio back in the 1980's, after listening to Air Farce, which was also hysterical. Both ended up getting TV shows on the CBC too.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
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Who's Dimples? Who's the MP for Kelowna? Both interesting questions that are hard to answer.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby The Green Barbarian » Feb 24th, 2018, 2:34 pm

rustled wrote:
Often, we do know when a post is not true (examples being utter nonsense in the Site C thread about how much food is grown in the Peace, utter nonsense about when the shovels hit the ground for the Penticton hospital expansion or who decided to include Merritt in the Coquihalla project or how much a single provincial campsite cost, etc., in the election thread, etc.) Just as we very often do know when a politician is bending and twisting the truth to suit their own agenda. Ashton used this "not really lying, just not really telling the truth" technique with the school closure issue, and may well be using half-truths around the real estate tax as well, for the same reason: he clearly has an agenda.

We all make errors sometimes, that's only human, but when someone continues to repeat an error even when it's obvious they're wrong, the intent is obviously to lie.

:topic: Whether it's Ashton, any other politician, or a poster on a forum, when we're presented with contradictory or inflammatory information it behooves us to find out more before we repeat it. And IMO, if we know something is flat out wrong and likely to lead people to support bad policy, it's not really appropriate to stay silent and let the lie stand.


As usual Rustled, you say it better than I could. And as usual, I expect those with confirmation biases similar to CF will just put their hands over their ears and refuse to listen, or worse, continue to believe that lying is ok, as long as the ends justify the horrible means. Those kinds of people are the true dangers to society in my opinion.
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Who's Dimples? Who's the MP for Kelowna? Both interesting questions that are hard to answer.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby normaM » Feb 24th, 2018, 3:07 pm

Goodness we are all being so erudite! Love the word Behooves.
Maybe LIAR is just too hot button a word.. hmm, fibber? enhancer? pinocchio?
Hey that gets you a 2fer insult, liar and wood head
We should invite Dan to join in here, see what he has to say
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby rustled » Feb 24th, 2018, 3:19 pm

The Green Barbarian wrote:
rustled wrote:
I'm going off to look for the Kids in the Hall. Weren't they the Chicken Lady and Mr. Canoe Head? :biggrin:
(ETA: OMG. Found a compilation. :laugh: Now I'm crying.)

:topic: Ashton's integrity.


Mr. Canoe Head was 4 on the Floor - by the Frantics. Used to love listening to them on Sundays on CBC radio back in the 1980's, after listening to Air Farce, which was also hysterical. Both ended up getting TV shows on the CBC too.


A story so incredible, only Mormons would believe it.
:laugh: Thanks for this!

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby Cactusflower » Feb 24th, 2018, 6:56 pm

The Green Barbarian wrote:
rustled wrote:
Often, we do know when a post is not true (examples being utter nonsense in the Site C thread about how much food is grown in the Peace, utter nonsense about when the shovels hit the ground for the Penticton hospital expansion or who decided to include Merritt in the Coquihalla project or how much a single provincial campsite cost, etc., in the election thread, etc.) Just as we very often do know when a politician is bending and twisting the truth to suit their own agenda. Ashton used this "not really lying, just not really telling the truth" technique with the school closure issue, and may well be using half-truths around the real estate tax as well, for the same reason: he clearly has an agenda.

We all make errors sometimes, that's only human, but when someone continues to repeat an error even when it's obvious they're wrong, the intent is obviously to lie.

:topic: Whether it's Ashton, any other politician, or a poster on a forum, when we're presented with contradictory or inflammatory information it behooves us to find out more before we repeat it. And IMO, if we know something is flat out wrong and likely to lead people to support bad policy, it's not really appropriate to stay silent and let the lie stand.


As usual Rustled, you say it better than I could. And as usual, I expect those with confirmation biases similar to CF will just put their hands over their ears and refuse to listen, or worse, continue to believe that lying is ok, as long as the ends justify the horrible means. Those kinds of people are the true dangers to society in my opinion.


At last! I knew you guys would eventually get around to stating who it was you were REALLY insulting. I suppose you thought you were being clever, but everyone's onto your childish little game. You may as well give up because you're just embarrassing yourselves. Dan Ashton is a prince compared to you two kids.
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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby rustled » Feb 24th, 2018, 8:36 pm

Cactusflower wrote:At last! I knew you guys would eventually get around to stating who it was you were REALLY insulting. I suppose you thought you were being clever, but everyone's onto your childish little game. You may as well give up because you're just embarrassing yourselves. Dan Ashton is a prince compared to you two kids.

If you find "consider the source" insulting when it's made with regard to one of your posts, maybe consider what you post instead of "pretending" it's about someone else.

Be accountable for what you post. Own it. Take responsibility. That's what grownups do. Just sayin'.

Dan Ashton a prince. Hm. Interesting thought. Prince Humperdink? Nah, JK.

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Re: Dan Ashton, what a guy!

Postby Urban Cowboy » Feb 24th, 2018, 8:45 pm

rustled wrote:We all make errors sometimes, that's only human, but when someone continues to repeat an error even when it's obvious they're wrong, the intent is obviously to lie.

:topic: Whether it's Ashton, any other politician, or a poster on a forum, when we're presented with contradictory or inflammatory information it behooves us to find out more before we repeat it. And IMO, if we know something is flat out wrong and likely to lead people to support bad policy, it's not really appropriate to stay silent and let the lie stand.


Actually I believe the intent isn't simply to lie, but to do their utmost, to digitally influence some into believing as they do.

It's no secret the internet is being used for nefarious purposes, some even being paid to spread misinformation, so as you indicate, and I agree, it's not really appropriate to stay silent, when we know something is a lie.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
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