Random drug testing for welfare recipients

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby alanjh595 » Aug 15th, 2018, 5:37 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:I think you mean the employed, and why exactly are they exempt from OD discussions? Probably because it's too hard to keep track of when working people are paid and it's much easier to blame all the ODs on those claiming SA so people can whine about welfare bums spending their tax dollars on drugs.


If the employed people want to spend their wages on whatever they want whether it be drugs or ATVs, it's none of your business. They are employed, and they are are paying their fair share of taxes.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby normaM » Aug 15th, 2018, 6:22 pm

should have random testing of forum posters I swear
Random testing is like random whatever - will it prove much? Doubtful
If they test positive shall we let them ( and their children) starve?
To have any effective test there needs a base line, etc
Who sets the baseline?
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Poindexter » Aug 15th, 2018, 6:30 pm

Good intentions aren't always enough, in fact sometimes they can exasterbate the problem. If people really cared they'd try to help these people, not just hand them a cheque each month.

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 15th, 2018, 6:52 pm

alanjh595 wrote:If the employed people want to spend their wages on whatever they want whether it be drugs or ATVs, it's none of your business. They are employed, and they are are paying their fair share of taxes.


Nowhere did I try to dictate what employed people can and can't spend their money on. I think the point I was trying to make flew over your head or you decided to change the topic for some random reason.

Employed people are often paid at nearly the same times as people receiving SA, so why is it fair to say that these increases of ODs are the result of so-called Welfare Wednesdays and not the Canadian population in general (both employed and unemployed) being paid?

You told me there's a bunch of data to back up the idea that these ODs are solely or primarily caused by the unemployed, but then you supplied incorrect information about when the cheques are issued. Do you have any correct information aside from a few words in some sensationist headlines?
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby bob vernon » Aug 15th, 2018, 7:36 pm

Again, denying welfare payments based on a drug test would be penalizing the victim of the crime. The crime is the importation or manufacture of the drugs and the trafficking of them to the addict. A trafficker has no qualms about destroying the life of an addict for profit and the trafficker therefore deserves to face the death penalty for knowingly destroying lives. It's the only solution that POSSIBLY will end the cycle.

Denying welfare to an addict will only boost the crime rate as addicts steal to support themselves. Want to end the trafficking of drugs? Go after the trafficker, not the addict.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 15th, 2018, 8:45 pm

I don't usually do the red lettering but there are so many frigging questions asked in the post quoted it is really the only way I can possibly reply in any organized fashion. What I did find most difficult in this quest is that the word "colour" is spelled "color" in the bbs code. As I am opposed to Trumps tariffs on Canada, in protest I am stating this fact before I dive into this long post. Sigh... here I go...

normaM wrote:should have random testing of forum posters I swear
Why? I find the diversity absolutely wonderful, and all opinions whether they agree with your point of view or not (at least in my opinion) are good.
Random testing is like random whatever - will it prove much? Doubtful
I disagree, I'm certain it will determine (or prove if you prefer) that a percentile of those on the welfare program test positive for drug use.
If they test positive shall we let them ( and their children) starve?
Good god! (**Disclaimer: god not capitalized due to religious beliefs) Never would the Government let such a thing happen if they were aware of the issue! You make it sound like you think that monsters with no compassion work in the welfare departments.
The Children should be removed from the family and placement with relatives, a foster family or specialized residential resource in accordance with the Family and Community Service Act. A social worker should immediately be provided to hopefully get the addicted drug user back on the right track, and back to qualifying for welfare once gain, or to get them on the path to working also, and of course to get their children back. With any luck maybe finding their dealer and getting that level of the chain dealt with would also be helpful.

To have any effective test there needs a base line, etc.
I think the baseline is pretty clear, if someone is tested positive for having an illegal substance in their bloodstream then they are at issue. If the drug test comes in as negative and shows there are no illegal substances in their bloodstream then they are good to receive benefits up until they are flagged for their next testing review.
Please notice the words illegal are bolded and underlined, this is to clarify that I do take note that marijuana will soon be legal (November I think?) and therefore will not a factor in the testing. (same as tobacco and alcohol)
And one last point, if the goal of the drug testing is to stop the people that are overdosing then what type of a parent are you thinking these junkies are? I would wager that if they have kids, then it's a better chance that the kids indeed are starving while the parent goes to get their fix.

Who sets the baseline?
Your Provincial Government in a small part, but more specifically the Federal Government by generating laws to outline the testing program. If you have ever taken the fun task of reading a law, you would understand just how concise the outlines can be. I'm pretty sure this law, if put in place would be no different.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 15th, 2018, 8:52 pm

the truth wrote:the reason its used is because its a ---fact--- https://globalnews.ca/news/3411045/apri ... c-history/ i guess this story is a lie--- :135: ok then whatever you say


The story isn't a lie, but the article is extremely misleading.

First of all, it says the previous record was Nov 20th 2016, but SA cheques were issued on November 23rd in 2016 and direct deposited on the 22nd. November 20th 2016 is days off from being a "Welfare Wednesday" but this information isn't made clear. Are we to assume that the previous record was held by employed people?

The article also talks about how data is accumulated during cheque issue weeks yet keeps mentioning the specific Welfare Wednesday. It just makes a mess of what exactly is being discussed. It's sensationalist nonsense.

There's an OD problem and it does look like it spikes sorta kinda around when SA cheques are handed out, but I'm not seeing any conclusive evidence that a bunch of employed people aren't contributing to these deaths and overdose calls.

A solution has to include both employed and unemployed people, and not stupid ideas about shipping off everyone on SA or making them work in coal mines or completely cutting off SA because some people use the money for drugs.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Jflem1983 » Aug 15th, 2018, 8:56 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
the truth wrote:the reason its used is because its a ---fact--- https://globalnews.ca/news/3411045/apri ... c-history/ i guess this story is a lie--- :135: ok then whatever you say


The story isn't a lie, but the article is extremely misleading.

First of all, it says the previous record was Nov 20th 2016, but SA cheques were issued on November 23rd in 2016 and direct deposited on the 22nd. November 20th 2016 is days off from being a "Welfare Wednesday" but this information isn't made clear. Are we to assume that the previous record was held by employed people?

The article also talks about how data is accumulated during cheque issue weeks yet keeps mentioning the specific Welfare Wednesday. It just makes a mess of what exactly is being discussed. It's sensationalist nonsense.

There's an OD problem and it does look like it spikes sorta kinda around when SA cheques are handed out, but I'm not seeing any conclusive evidence that a bunch of employed people aren't contributing to these deaths and overdose calls.

A solution has to include both employed and unemployed people, and not stupid ideas about shipping off everyone on SA or making them work in coal mines or completely cutting off SA because some people use the money for drugs.



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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:01 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:If the employed people want to spend their wages on whatever they want whether it be drugs or ATVs, it's none of your business. They are employed, and they are are paying their fair share of taxes.


Nowhere did I try to dictate what employed people can and can't spend their money on. I think the point I was trying to make flew over your head or you decided to change the topic for some random reason.

Employed people are often paid at nearly the same times as people receiving SA, so why is it fair to say that these increases of ODs are the result of so-called Welfare Wednesdays and not the Canadian population in general (both employed and unemployed) being paid?

You told me there's a bunch of data to back up the idea that these ODs are solely or primarily caused by the unemployed, but then you supplied incorrect information about when the cheques are issued. Do you have any correct information aside from a few words in some sensationist headlines?


Thee are over 400,000 hits on google that one can research to see if there is a correlation between those on income assistance and illicit drug use. The number, if you choose to read the article below, average weekly mortality due to illicit drug overdose was 40% higher during weeks of income assistance payments compared to weeks without payments.

But why should I do all the work? I will just give you one, your choice if you want to read further:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5916301645
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:03 pm

atenbacon wrote:Thee are over 400,000 hits on google that one can research to see if there is a correlation between those on income assistance and illicit drug use. The number, if you choose to read the article below, average weekly mortality due to illicit drug overdose was 40% higher during weeks of income assistance payments compared to weeks without payments.

But why should I do all the work? I will just give you one, your choice if you want to read further:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5916301645


I know, I'm just questioning how many employed people are being paid during these weeks and contributing to these numbers especially since some of the worst days are actually BEFORE SA cheques are issued.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:10 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
atenbacon wrote:Thee are over 400,000 hits on google that one can research to see if there is a correlation between those on income assistance and illicit drug use. The number, if you choose to read the article below, average weekly mortality due to illicit drug overdose was 40% higher during weeks of income assistance payments compared to weeks without payments.

But why should I do all the work? I will just give you one, your choice if you want to read further:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5916301645


I know, I'm just questioning how many employed people are being paid during these weeks and contributing to these numbers especially since some of the worse days are actually BEFORE SA cheques are issued.


The link I gave is a full paper on the subject, if you refuse to look at the data then that is on you. I clearly stated (Based on data in the link above) incidents are 40% higher on payment weeks, I have to ask where you are getting your data from, because the link I supplied disagrees with your opinion on the subject.
Last edited by atenbacon on Aug 15th, 2018, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:14 pm

Read your own link - 40% higher during payment weeks, not days.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:22 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:Read your own link - 40% higher during payment weeks, not days.


Thank you, I have corrected my error, it was linked above in the quote so it is pretty clear I made an oopsie there... too much typing for today I guess.


I think I see a potential other question that I may have missed.. Are you asking if the numbers may be skewed by those that are working full time jobs and not on income assistance?


If that is the case, then no, the paper I linked looks specifically at those that are on income assistance. In my experience, not many full time employees on crack, fentanol or heroine (Some examples) retain full time jobs long enough to be a factor in the numbers.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:26 pm

atenbacon wrote:Are you asking if the numbers may be skewed by those that are working full time jobs and not on income assistance?


Yes, thanks. This is exactly what I'm asking. A week is a long time.

atenbacon wrote:If that is the case, then no, the paper I linked looks specifically at those that are on income assistance. In my experience, not many full time employees on crack, fentanol or heroine (Some examples) retain full time jobs long enough to be a factor in the numbers.


I'll have to look again but I thought the study and similar ones simply looked at general OD numbers and linked them to SA cheque weeks? How is it possible to know if a person ODing is receiving SA or not?
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Jflem1983 » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:31 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
atenbacon wrote:Are you asking if the numbers may be skewed by those that are working full time jobs and not on income assistance?


Yes, thanks. This is exactly what I'm asking. A week is a long time.

atenbacon wrote:If that is the case, then no, the paper I linked looks specifically at those that are on income assistance. In my experience, not many full time employees on crack, fentanol or heroine (Some examples) retain full time jobs long enough to be a factor in the numbers.


I'll have to look again but I thought the study and similar ones simply looked at general OD numbers and linked them to SA cheque weeks? How is it possible to know if a person ODing is receiving SA or not?





Well in Kelowna. A lot of welfare collectors get put in certain housing . It is usually not in my neighbourhood . So if for say. The overdose happened. And it was in a Knights of Columbus project. One could ritefully assume the drug overdose was on welfare.


Would you care to elaborate on why you think saving welfare seekers lives is a bad idea. The sober one will pass. The zombies will struggle to pass that daily pee test. Once they fail. Cut em off.
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