Random drug testing for welfare recipients

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 15th, 2018, 9:59 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
atenbacon wrote:Are you asking if the numbers may be skewed by those that are working full time jobs and not on income assistance?


Yes, thanks. This is exactly what I'm asking. A week is a long time.

atenbacon wrote:If that is the case, then no, the paper I linked looks specifically at those that are on income assistance. In my experience, not many full time employees on crack, fentanol or heroine (Some examples) retain full time jobs long enough to be a factor in the numbers.


I'll have to look again but I thought the study and similar ones simply looked at general OD numbers and linked them to SA cheque weeks? How is it possible to know if a person ODing is receiving SA or not?


You are asking for a study that may exist in the 400,000 other links in a google search, but for this specific detail you are requesting you wont find it in this one paper. This paper relies on data that is statistic and based on fancy mathematics and sciency stuff, which for me, the media, government and most folks is accurate enough to confidently make the claim that there indeed is a correlation between payment dates of those on social assistance and illicit drug use and yes, overdoses.


I hope you find one that satisfies your needs, but if it doesn't are you happy then in how the system is currently running? In my opinion, there are many opportunities to make improvements and one of them yes, based on the data I have seen leads me to agree with drug testing being a requirement in order to recieve income assistance. Maybe some day I will get my wish, for now it is just a hope.
You have to keep an open mind until it is proven one way or the other. You just can't take the T.V. or internet word on it.

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby alanjh595 » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:43 am

savvybusinessman wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:If the employed people want to spend their wages on whatever they want whether it be drugs or ATVs, it's none of your business. They are employed, and they are are paying their fair share of taxes.


Nowhere did I try to dictate what employed people can and can't spend their money on. I think the point I was trying to make flew over your head or you decided to change the topic for some random reason.

Employed people are often paid at nearly the same times as people receiving SA, so why is it fair to say that these increases of ODs are the result of so-called Welfare Wednesdays and not the Canadian population in general (both employed and unemployed) being paid?

You told me there's a bunch of data to back up the idea that these ODs are solely or primarily caused by the unemployed, but then you supplied incorrect information about when the cheques are issued. Do you have any correct information aside from a few words in some sensationist headlines?


Employed people are usually paid every second Friday or on the 1st and 15th of the month. People on EI are paid every 2nd Friday. Those on social assistance are paid on the last Wednesday of every month.
OD spikes are on the last Thursday and Friday of every month, immediately following Welfare day. Do the math yourself.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby oneh2obabe » Aug 16th, 2018, 6:55 am

alanjh595 wrote:Those on social assistance are paid on the last Wednesday of every month.
OD spikes are on the last Thursday and Friday of every month, immediately following Welfare day. Do the math yourself.

Social assistance payments are usually the 2nd last Wednesday of the month but there are a few months where it's paid on the last Wednesday.
2018 Schedule
January 24, 2018 (for February 2018)
February 21, 2018 (for March 2018)
March 21, 2018 (for April 2018)
April 25, 2018 (for May 2018)
May 23, 2018 (for June 2018)
June 27, 2018 (for July 2018)
July 25, 2018 (for August 2018)
August 22, 2018 (for September 2018)
September 26, 2018 (for October 2018)
October 24, 2018 (for November 2018)
November 21, 2018 (for December 2018)
December 19, 2018 (for January 2019)
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby alanjh595 » Aug 16th, 2018, 7:05 am

oneh2obabe wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:Those on social assistance are paid on the last Wednesday of every month.
OD spikes are on the last Thursday and Friday of every month, immediately following Welfare day. Do the math yourself.

Social assistance payments are usually the 2nd last Wednesday of the month but there are a few months where it's paid on the last Wednesday.
2018 Schedule
January 24, 2018 (for February 2018)
February 21, 2018 (for March 2018)
March 21, 2018 (for April 2018)
April 25, 2018 (for May 2018)
May 23, 2018 (for June 2018)
June 27, 2018 (for July 2018)
July 25, 2018 (for August 2018)
August 22, 2018 (for September 2018)
September 26, 2018 (for October 2018)
October 24, 2018 (for November 2018)
November 21, 2018 (for December 2018)
December 19, 2018 (for January 2019)


Okay, my error, the results are still the same.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby the truth » Aug 16th, 2018, 7:34 am

normaM wrote:should have random testing of forum posters I swear
Random testing is like random whatever - will it prove much? Doubtful
If they test positive shall we let them ( and their children) starve?
To have any effective test there needs a base line, etc
Who sets the baseline?


drug test me every day :smt045 i'm as clean as it gets-- i practice what i preach,
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Jflem1983 » Aug 16th, 2018, 11:56 am

Another great reason to drug test these lazy people. It will be a serious inconvenience to have to be constantly tested. Maybe it would actually get people off welfare. I mean once they realized they were spending hours every day just to pee in a cup. Maybe going to work instead wouldnt seem half bad .
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Omnitheo » Aug 16th, 2018, 1:43 pm

Why don’t we do random drug testing for all citizens? Anyone who takes advantage of anything that uses taxpayer dollars. You ever go to see a doctor or to the hospital? Random drug testing. You drive on the roads. Random drug testing! Sounds like a great idea to ensure that tax dollars aren’t going to help anyone who uses any kind of drug.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby alanjh595 » Aug 16th, 2018, 2:19 pm

Omnitheo wrote:Why don’t we do random drug testing for all citizens? Anyone who takes advantage of anything that uses taxpayer dollars. You ever go to see a doctor or to the hospital? Random drug testing. You drive on the roads. Random drug testing! Sounds like a great idea to ensure that tax dollars aren’t going to help anyone who uses any kind of drug.


Well......if you go to the hospital, they will do drug testing and it isn't random. It is part of the diagnosis. Same goes for seeing a DR. they order blood tests on an annual basis or whenever they want to.
If you operate a motor vehicle, whether it be an automobile, snowmobile, boat, or are on horseback (if that horse is on a public hiway) you are subject to drug and alcohol testing and you can be criminally charged.
If you wish to dispute the charge, you have the right to have your pleading heard before a judge.
By the time that case appears before a judge, many months or years have passed and has cost you many $$$ in legal fees to dispute it. The costs of legal advice are far more costly than anything the court could sentence you to.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby atenbacon » Aug 16th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Omnitheo wrote:Why don’t we do random drug testing for all citizens? Anyone who takes advantage of anything that uses taxpayer dollars. You ever go to see a doctor or to the hospital? Random drug testing. You drive on the roads. Random drug testing! Sounds like a great idea to ensure that tax dollars aren’t going to help anyone who uses any kind of drug.


Whoa there cowboy! One hurdle at a time I suggest. The biggest social impact and best bang for the buck at this time would be testing for those on social assistance. Just think, a portion of people going from being on social assistance to becoming working tax payers. Testing all citizens that already pay taxes is maybe step two or three in the process. I do agree though in a sense, if the first step works, go to the next... which may be road safety per your examples. But if the programs fail to yield results then they should end.
You have to keep an open mind until it is proven one way or the other. You just can't take the T.V. or internet word on it.

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:05 pm

atenbacon wrote:You are asking for a study that may exist in the 400,000 other links in a google search, but for this specific detail you are requesting you wont find it in this one paper. This paper relies on data that is statistic and based on fancy mathematics and sciency stuff, which for me, the media, government and most folks is accurate enough to confidently make the claim that there indeed is a correlation between payment dates of those on social assistance and illicit drug use and yes, overdoses.


It doesn't seem like a really specific detail to me. Correlation is there for sure, but without ruling out full-time employees adding to these numbers I just don't get implementing policies like drug testing. Giving people multiple cheques over an entire month seems like a better idea to see if it'd help with overdose rates but at least in BC Horgan shot down this idea. I'll look at some other studies but it's pretty time consuming.

atenbacon wrote:are you happy then in how the system is currently running?


I only have some experience from when I was on EI and some family members who have collected SA. There's such an enormous variety of people collecting government cheques for so many different reasons I don't think I can confidently say whether I'm happy with how the system as a whole is currently running.

There have been some other topics where people who work in this area have tried to share their knowledge and opinions but they're told to shut up pretty fast and told they're enabling junkies.....
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:08 pm

alanjh595 wrote:Well......if you go to the hospital, they will do drug testing and it isn't random. It is part of the diagnosis. Same goes for seeing a DR. they order blood tests on an annual basis or whenever they want to.
If you operate a motor vehicle, whether it be an automobile, snowmobile, boat, or are on horseback (if that horse is on a public hiway) you are subject to drug and alcohol testing and you can be criminally charged.


What? I've been to KGH a few times and have never been drug tested. My doctor has never ordered a blood test to check for drugs and I've never had to undergo a drug test to operate a vehicle.

What the heck are you talking about? What kind of doctor are you seeing that annual drug tests are necessary?

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Jflem1983 » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:16 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:Well......if you go to the hospital, they will do drug testing and it isn't random. It is part of the diagnosis. Same goes for seeing a DR. they order blood tests on an annual basis or whenever they want to.
If you operate a motor vehicle, whether it be an automobile, snowmobile, boat, or are on horseback (if that horse is on a public hiway) you are subject to drug and alcohol testing and you can be criminally charged.


What? I've been to KGH a few times and have never been drug tested. My doctor has never ordered a blood test to check for drugs and I've never had to undergo a drug test to operate a vehicle.

What the heck are you talking about? What kind of doctor are you seeing that annual drug tests are necessary?



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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby alanjh595 » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:47 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:Well......if you go to the hospital, they will do drug testing and it isn't random. It is part of the diagnosis. Same goes for seeing a DR. they order blood tests on an annual basis or whenever they want to.
If you operate a motor vehicle, whether it be an automobile, snowmobile, boat, or are on horseback (if that horse is on a public hiway) you are subject to drug and alcohol testing and you can be criminally charged.


What? I've been to KGH a few times and have never been drug tested. How do you know? They took blood, did they tell you what they were testing for? My doctor has never ordered a blood test to check for drugs Are you sure? Do you not get annual blood tests taken? and I've never had to undergo a drug test to operate a vehicle. Unless you were in an accident or suspected of being impaired by drugs, and/or the hospital took a blood sample. They don't tell you what they are testing for.

What the heck are you talking about? What kind of doctor are you seeing that annual drug tests are necessary? Annual blood tests are taken to check for many things, where did I say specifically for drugs? Just another one of your made up lies that you are so famous for.
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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby savvybusinessman » Aug 16th, 2018, 5:52 pm

^No I don't have annual blood tests and if my blood is ever drawn I look at the requisition sheets and specifically ask 'why." Never has a doctor said the blood is being drawn to check for drug use.

If you're trying to say doctors secretly test people for drugs take it to the conspiracy section.

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Re: Random drug testing for welfare recipients

Postby Jflem1983 » Aug 16th, 2018, 6:02 pm

savvybusinessman wrote:^No I don't have annual blood tests and if my blood is ever drawn I look at the requisition sheets and specifically ask 'why." Never has a doctor said the blood is being drawn to check for drug use.

If you're trying to say doctors secretly test people for drugs take it to the conspiracy section.



If you do not think doctors actively test patients for drugs you are mistaken. Drug reactions can be serious. Many people are tested for all sorts of things.
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