Teacher bargaining

[rustled]

If they had told us ahead of time that they did not intend to honour the RtW agreement, I would never have gone in to work before Monday.

What's wrong with that? How about I worked all day sept 19 for nothing? That's what's wrong with that.

On ordinary years, you are willing to spend a few days prepping your classroom even though you are not directly paid for that time. Previously you acknowledged your professional responsibility to yourself and your students included a certain amount of time for which you were not directly paid, and at one time you seemed to realize your overall salary reflected this responsibility. But this year, you are indignant about having put in a single unpaid day. So indignant you wish you hadn't even bothered, and now you're quite happy to embroil your district in a grievance over it.

Do you not think that sounds petty, vindictive, and spiteful? As for this:

They don't have to "not adhere" to the CA. They just have to make a voluntary decision to pay teachers for Sept 19th. They have that right and ability to give teachers a day's pay for Sept 19 (or any other day) and still adhere to the contract.

I agree with LoneWolf and Green Barbarian: That's our tax money. We've entrusted it to our school boards and they need to make the best use of it they can. That money could buy a lot of classroom resources, but instead some districts have arbitrarily given it away just to keep the peace. As a taxpayer I would much rather each district had followed the CA, whether the teachers liked it or not, just as these same boards must follow the CA whether we like it or not when your union has negotiated CS&C ratios and staff benefits which are not in the best interests of our students.

This grievance is exactly the sort of thing that makes your membership look like money-grubbing unionists instead of professionals. Your own statements quoted above make you look like a money-grubbing unionist instead of a professional. How can you not see this? And then there's this gem:

How can I blame them for not anticipating a situation as unusual as this one, and that will likely never happen again??

Yet you are utterly unable to acknowledge your union's "inability to anticipate unusual situations" when it comes to CSC, and you still expect perfect adherence to the CA under all of those conditions. Deviation from the CA there is always grounds for grievance, but adherence to it when you don't like it is also grounds for grievance.

I completely agree with Urbane: I don't like the union mentality when it comes to teaching.

[Urbane]

^^ 10/10

Very well said rustled. I hope that KGT is reflecting on what you've written. In particular:

I agree with LoneWolf and Green Barbarian: That's our tax money. We've entrusted it to our school boards and they need to make the best use of it they can. That money could buy a lot of classroom resources, but instead some districts have arbitrarily given it away just to keep the peace. As a taxpayer I would much rather each district had followed the CA, whether the teachers liked it or not, just as these same boards must follow the CA whether we like it or not when your union has negotiated CS&C ratios and staff benefits which are not in the best interests of our students.

This grievance is exactly the sort of thing that makes your membership look like money-grubbing unionists instead of professionals. Your own statements quoted above make you look like a money-grubbing unionist instead of a professional. How can you not see this?

As you say, that's our tax money and with all we've heard about a shortage of money to spend in our classrooms it's hard not to direct the word "hypocritical" toward those who are asking boards to ignore the CA in order to pay teachers money to which they're not contractually entitled. As you also say, making such a request and following up with a grievance makes teachers look like money-grubbing unionists instead of professionals. That's not good for anyone and I hope that teachers like KGT will come to realize that. It's time for some serious reflection on the part of teachers.

[Carmencat]

These posts bring to mind several made a few weeks ago by KGT regarding the months that teachers are paid. She asserted that teachers are paid for the months of September to June, so if school starts early in September (as it would have this year - September 2nd) the days the teachers go into the classroom to set up in late August are unpaid. So I am unsure why not being paid for the 19th is a big deal since according to KGT she would not have been paid for going into the school late August to set up her classroom.

In these previous emails I brought up that if teachers are paid for September to June inclusive then in years when school starts later in the month - as it will in 2015 - teachers are paid for several days at the beginning of the month that they are not required to be in school. For example next September school will start on the 8th, and teachers will be paid for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th even though school is not in session. They may decide to spend some of part of those days setting up their classrooms, but they will be paid regardless of whether they spend those days in the classroom or not.

In the same vein, the last day of class for this school year is the 24th of June, and the 25th is an admin day. But teachers will be paid for the 29th and 30th of June even though school is no longer in session. So as far as I am concerned they are getting paid for the 19th of September by being paid for two days at the end of June when school in no longer is session.

[Osoyoos_Familyof4]

Just because school isn't in session doesn't mean that teachers aren't working.

They are officially on the job till the end of June. They are required to be in the building for meetings and organizational planning and clean up.

There is so much more administration type duties that go on behind he scenes that requires teacher input. Don't assume just because the children aren't there that work isn't being done.

As well, they are packing up the classrooms, the rooms are thoroughly cleaned in the summer by custodial staff. That means things have to all be moved and put away. Children also notoriously leave their belongings behind and sometimes you have to figure out who's stuff this is and try to figure out a way to get it back to them if it's important. Teachers have their own stock of materials, some teachers have a ton of it. If it's in doubt where they will be teaching next year they will have to pack this all up and load up their vehicles.

And also just something to consider (because teachers are really just getting unnecessarily bashed here, I think honestly it's become a cruel sport with some of you). My school teacher husband just took a group of 18 kids to an event in Vancouver. He spent 1 night in a hotel with them. He returned after 10:00pm the next night ( so an almost 48 hour commitment ) that was high stress the entire time. Keeping 18 kids safe and organized in the big city, fed, dressed properly for weather, patrolled the halls of the hotel to make sure they were where they were supposed to be etc. He was paid his regular wage for 2 days of course. But there was nothing extra for the other 32 hours over and above a typical 8 hour workday. And no, this isn't a complaint, it just is. He was thrilled for the opportunity and he loved the event and sharing the experience with the kids. But this is an example of things that happen all the time that teachers do, and don't expect extra payment for.

But to expect teachers to organize their classrooms, get intelligence from the teacher the previous year for certain kids etc. Have a staff meeting and make up lists of who gets what child and for what reason etc. in one day (because of the labour dispute, but also because even when there isn't a labour dispute there is always a last minute scramble of class lists and consideration of breaking up children with issues so they are spread around evenly) and then NOT pay them for that day! Seriously take a consideration here, when is the last time you worked an entire day and didn't get paid for it. It wasn't fair and you can talk trash about the whiney greedy teachers all you like, but I am telling you there is so much stuff that you can't even imagine goes on to produce the classroom logically and what's for the best of our children.

Thanksgiving Monday this year, my husband put a picture up on his FB account. The school parking lot was packed, not one available space. Every car, was a teachers car. Every single teacher at his school spent at least some time in that building that day.

And darn it, this again isn't a complaint, it is fact. It is information only so please don't accuse me of whining. My husband loves his job and he loves his kids. He is a performer, and entertainer, and a teacher. A good school day for him is a production, think about how much work goes into even the most amateur theatre, he does this every day and plans for it just about every night in our den. He imparts the information they need, but he does it in a creative and entertaining way that engages the children. It is a gift people, a real gift to do this job right. Sure there are some teachers who don't see it this way. But I am telling you the new crop of teachers really are educated and trained to think outside of the box in how to deliver the "dry stuff" in a way that's fun and informative. And the beloved teachers who have put in so many years...well their wisdom is precious and appreciated.

Cute story: Last year my Kindergarten daughter came home excited to show me something. She had learned 2 new "dances" in music class. What she learned was "the sprinkler" and "the hula". And who taught her this? The most senior teacher in the district. Sweet looking and being woman well into her 60's. There is something to be said by still generating joy and pleasure for children by a woman who rightly could be at home knitting blankets for her Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren.

[Urbane]

Osoyoos_Familyof4 :

As you say, "Just because school isn't in session doesn't mean that teachers aren't working." True enough but with all due respect I don't think that's the issue because almost no one disagrees with that. Most of us realize how hard teachers work and we understand that teachers put in lots of time preparing for classes, marking papers, taking field trips beyond the regular school day, and involving themselves in lots of other activities on behalf of their students. However, it must be remembered that teachers are paid on an annual basis. Their yearly salary is divided by 10 or by 12 and teachers receive a monthly payment. It's only when there's a strike and salaries need to be docked that we have an issue with how to calculate it.

So after the strike the days of salary are added up and docked according to the language in the local contract and while we know that teachers put in lots of time beyond the regular school day that's not a factor when it comes to adhering to the collective agreement. Adhering to that agreement is not teacher-bashing. Nor is supporting districts that do adhere to the contract. You must see the irony in KGT and other teachers asking school boards to look the other way and NOT adhere to the terms of the collective agreement. After all we've heard about "contract stripping" it's glaringly inconsistent for teachers to be asking boards to ignore the mutually agreed upon language in the CA and voluntarily give them more money. Money that is taxpayers' money that could be spent on students. Anyway, that's how I see it.

[Osoyoos_Familyof4]

What I think you folks don't understand (and teachers are taxpayers too, nobody likes waste) is that teachers are paid a salary based on a totally unrealistic amount of hours they're working.

Yes, perhaps this is a negotiation failure on the part of the BCTF, however it has been demonstrated for many years now that the BCTF maybe hasn't done the best at negotiating, but as well, it's pretty hard to negotiate with defiant NO over and over.

The job is so much more than the salary reflects for most teachers.

Yes, there are some very high paid teachers who have been teaching many years, but that doesn't reflect the reality of the distribution of school teachers.

What is more accurate is this: Teachers working 5 years plus part time looking for a contract. And if they're lucky maybe they can at least get a steady part-time school teaching job while they wait. The rest of the time maybe they work some other job, often low paying hospitality jobs, at least in this region. Because they have to be available during the day, they often are servers, bartenders, pizza delivery drivers...whatever.

Teachers working 12 years earn about 64,000 a year. I could show you a T4 if I owned a scanner. This is more accurate.

So, back to the point. You can dissect a teachers salary to death and you'd still likely not ever get a clear picture of how many hours they work. Yes some more than others. But I can honestly tell you that 8am to 5pm is about standard. When it's report card time, you work about 55 hours a week for 2 weeks, twice a year. Many teachers will spend at least some part of their weekend in the school. My husband usually spends 4 hours every Sunday in the classroom prepping. On an ordinary night, he might spend an hour or more marking or prepping (after already having prepped 2.5 hours after the children have left). Most teachers will go in 4 hours plus on a long weekend to catch up. Most will work 2 days from the winter and spring break. Most will work at least part time the second week of August (they are required to be back the last week of August).

So, when you want to nickel and dime the teachers for a prep day they'd normally have been paid for if not for the labour dispute it feels really petty. They worked that day (period).

And you can't even begin to account for all the extra time the job requires that the contract doesn't reflect. And the flawed reflection of time is something the government loves!

I swear to goodness, I am one of the most frugal people I know. I HATE waste, and I hate government waste.

But in addition to hours worked not reflected in the contract language are supplies. Yes there are some teachers who use the school supplies faithfully and don't spend any of their own money. But there are so many more teachers that spend out of their own pockets. Last year we did a Mothers Day gift and Fathers Day gift that cost combined $130.000 maybe slightly more. Each child had a photo frame bought for each parent and a set of photos were taken and mounted in the frames. It was wildly popular and paid out of pocket by the teacher.

So, in addition to hours not accounted for in the contract language, and money spent out of pocket, and so much more time if a particular teacher is very active in extra-curriculars (again some more than others) this petty baloney about a days pay is such utter madness. Teachers sometimes takes kids on trips that are days long (no extra pay for that). Some teachers will work 60 hours a week coming up to an event that takes serious planning (like a day/days long field trip), or even just the bloody Christmas Concert. Today I unpacked my husbands travel bag that he brought with him from his 2 Day field trip. In it were risk assessments for each activity on the trip that parents needed to be notified about. Down to the hour itinerary documents so parents would know where their children were at at all times. Insurance papers and waivers signed by each parent. He had to do after school meetings with all the parents outlining the agenda, the itinerary, the insurance, the costs associated, medical concerns for a few kids. Then he did it all over again 3 days later for the few parents who couldn't make the first meeting. Then he did it a third time over the phone for a parent who simply couldn't make either of the first 2 meetings.

You folks clearly honestly and truly have no idea how the system works. You can all pile-on like you usually do because clearly this is a very conservative forum. But from the bottom of my being, you folks really clearly don't respect the profession, nor do you grasp the reality of the situation!

[LoneWolf_53]

On the contrary I'm of the belief that you have no clue as to how some things work.

Teaching is a salaried position where you get paid X dollars per year to perform X duties.

Before entering the profession astute folk would do their due diligence and be fully aware of all the pros and cons.

Though you make it sound that way, teaching sure as heck isn't the only salaried position where persons work long hours, yet some of those others don't come close to getting all the benefits that accompany the salary teachers take home and they most assuredly don't get three months of the year off.

If you're tired of people picking on teachers, maybe consider that it would happen a lot less if they weren't constantly whining and acting hard done by.

Those who don't like it are always free to leave and help themselves to some of that grass that they think is greener on the other side of the fence.

There are a lot of people who would be thrilled to bring home 60K+ per year along with benefits, as half of the household income. There are in fact many who don't earn that with two incomes combined.

[Urbane]

What I think you folks don't understand (and teachers are taxpayers too, nobody likes waste) is that teachers are paid a salary based on a totally unrealistic amount of hours they're working.

Whether or not teachers are paid too little, too much, or just right is a separate issue from the issue of how salary is deducted for September as a result of the strike. Some school boards, SD 23 included, have followed the language in the collective agreement and have paid teachers accordingly. Some teachers have complained and want the district to ignore the language in the CA in order to pay teachers more money. The argument that teachers put in extra hours in a regular basis has nothing to do with adhering to the contract.

By the way, I put in lots of "extra" hours when I was teaching but I didn't consider them to be "extra." I put in the time on behalf of my students and I considered the time spent to be part of my professional duties. Teachers are paid on an annual basis and if they want to be seen as professionals they can't keep pointing out the "extra" hours that they spend doing their job.

[LoneWolf_53]

By the way, I put in lots of "extra" hours when I was teaching but I didn't consider them to be "extra." I put in the time on behalf of my students and I considered the time spent to be part of my professional duties. Teachers are paid on an annual basis and if they want to be seen as professionals they can't keep pointing out the "extra" hours that they spend doing their job.

10/10 Perfectly stated.

Pity more can't seem to grasp the concept.

[KGT]

I worked hard on sept 19. The return to work agreement said I would be paid for that day. The district is reneging on that agreement.

[LANDM]

Then just think of it as being paid for that day and there is another day that you aren't getting paid for. You can't expect to take too many days off in a month can you?

Why not take it up with your union instead of blaming the employer? They are the ones that negotiated it for you.....why can't you get that simple fact? Go through the proper process and see what happens. If you are correct, you should have it changed to what you are expecting....if you aren't, then it stays as is. Right?

[beancounter]

I worked hard on sept 19. The return to work agreement said I would be paid for that day. The district is reneging on . If they had told us ahead of time that they did not intend to honour the RtW agreement, I would never have gone in to work before Monday.

What's wrong with that? How about I worked all day sept 19 for nothing? That's what's wrong with that.

We get it. You worked hard all that day. Just like you would have sans-strike in August with "no pay". We truly appreciate that.


Many people put in many "unpaid" hours in their professions for personal and/or humanitarian reasons. Perhaps they just want to do the best they can because they care about what they do, and about the people they work with. More often than not this goes unrecognized - in the teaching profession as well as others.

Maybe you can appreciate how you are coming across - and the harm you are doing to your profession - however, by re-reading these comments, as well as your own.

By the way, I put in lots of "extra" hours when I was teaching but I didn't consider them to be "extra." I put in the time on behalf of my students and I considered the time spent to be part of my professional duties. Teachers are paid on an annual basis and if they want to be seen as professionals they can't keep pointing out the "extra" hours that they spend doing their job.

This grievance is exactly the sort of thing that makes your membership look like money-grubbing unionists instead of professionals. Your own statements quoted above make you look like a money-grubbing unionist instead of a professional. How can you not see this? .

[KGT]

We get it. You worked hard all that day. Just like you would have sans-strike in August with "no pay". We truly appreciate that.


Many people put in many "unpaid" hours in their professions for personal and/or humanitarian reasons. Perhaps they just want to do the best they can because they care about what they do, and about the people they work with. More often than not this goes unrecognized - in the teaching profession as well

How many times does your boss ask you to come to work, tell you, in writing that he's going to pay you, and then not refuse to pay you after the fact?

All of my many hours of work in the summer, I have done gladly, and I continue to work weekends and evenings right now, without complaint. That is part of my job and I know and accept it.

Sept 19th was different. We had been on strike, we came to an agreement, we settled a contract. Part of that agreement was that we would have one paid day to get classrooms ready. Most school districts honoured that agreement and paid teachers for that day whether the collective agreement said they had to or not.

SD23 and a few others did not.

I get that you're all happy I didn't get paid for sept 19th and I get that you all think I'm a whiner. Feel free to continue to think that. I will continue to be angry at SD23 for not paying me for that day.

[Urbane]

How many times does your boss ask you to come to work, tell you, in writing that he's going to pay you, and then not refuse to pay you after the fact?

All of my many hours of work in the summer, I have done gladly, and I continue to work weekends and evenings right now, without complaint. That is part of my job and I know and accept it.

Sept 19th was different. We had been on strike, we came to an agreement, we settled a contract. Part of that agreement was that we would have one paid day to get classrooms ready. Most school districts honoured that agreement and paid teachers for that day whether the collective agreement said they had to or not.

SD23 and a few others did not.

I get that you're all happy I didn't get paid for sept 19th and I get that you all think I'm a whiner. Feel free to continue to think that. I will continue to be angry at SD23 for not paying me for that day.

No, KGT, the issue is not with September 19th. No one is disputing the fact that September 19th was a work day. It was not a strike day so that isn't the issue at all. Rather, the issue is with the manner in which salary was deducted for strike days during the month of September. Your local negotiated language that has apparently been followed by SD 23 so the district has merely complied with the collective agreement and you're angry at them for doing so.

You let your local off the hook for negotiating that language and you let the BCTF off the hook for blocking standardized language but instead you're angry at the district for complying with the CA. I realize that you fail to see the irony with your position but most of us do. If you're right and the district has made a mistake then presumably the arbitrator will rule in your favour when the grievance is heard. If you really believe all you've been telling us about the sanctity of contracts then you should gracefully accept the decision and move on. Without anger.

From BCPSEA re Coquitlam but it applies to SD 23 as well:

The position taken by the union, and reported by various media, is incorrect. Teachers in the Coquitlam School District were paid for all the days worked in September, including September 19, in accordance with their local collective agreement language.

When a teacher does not work a full month for any reason, there is collective agreement language — agreed-to by both the school district and the union — that specifically sets out how the teacher is paid. This collective agreement language varies throughout the province’s 60 public school districts — there is no standard language covering all 60 school districts.

This collective agreement language has been in place for many years and has been used on thousands of occasions to determine the pay of individual teachers who have not worked a full month for any number of reasons. It is also this language that determines how teachers were paid in each school district for the month of September 2014 when teachers missed 13 school/work days due to their strike.

BCPSEA has on numerous occasions attempted to bargain standard common provincial language for such practices. On almost every occasion, standardization of language has been opposed by the BCTF, which favours previously established local language. However, the varied local language is being properly applied by school districts in this situation.

[KGT]

[quote="Urbane"]
No, KGT, the issue is not with September 19th. No one is disputing the fact that September 19th was a work day. It was not a strike day so that isn't the issue at all. Rather, the issue is with the manner in which salary was deducted for strike days during the month of September. Your local negotiated language that has apparently been followed by SD 23 so the district has merely complied with the collective agreement and you're angry at them for doing so.

You let your local off the hook for negotiating that language and you let the BCTF off the hook for blocking standardized language but instead you're angry at the district for complying with the CA. I realize that you fail to see the irony with your position but most of us do. If you're right and the district has made a mistake then presumably the arbitrator will rule in your favour when the grievance is heard. If you really believe all you've been telling us about the sanctity of contracts then you should gracefully accept the decision and move on. Without anger.

[\quote]

You don't have to explain it to me. I understand exactly why they are using the CA as an excuse not to pay us.

No I am not angry at my local for not anticipating this highly unusual situation that is extremely unlikely to happen again. In addition, the BCTF covered that base by ensuring that the language "It will be a paid day" was included in the Return to Work agreement.

I have also stated that the district can pay us for that day and still abide by the CA. It does not go against the CA to pay teachers for Sept 19.

This is not about the CA, it is about the Return to Work agreement.

Don't tell me I can't, or shouldn't, be angry.

I am so sick of all this. I can't wait to retire. March 2016. The count down begins.

OK now it's your turn to suggest that my anticipation of retirement will negatively affect my students. Feel free.