Teacher bargaining

[hobbyguy]

Urbane, you mentioned the programs for "gifted" kids. I happen to think those programs are a complete waste of funding. I would much rather see that funding go for more CEAs.

Bright kids simply don't need nearly as much educating. In fact they benefit from not being singled out in many ways.

[flamingfingers]

But the concept of inclusion is a good one and it has been a success in this province.

I would dispute that fact with you Urb. From what I have read and talked to people about inclusion is that it really has been a good thing but there needs to be much more attention paid to classroom support for those that require CEAs and specialist teachers to fulfill the needs of comprehensive and full integration. You cannot expect one teacher to deal with the kaleidoscope of 26 or 29 kids in a classroom with an incredible range of learning challenges. After all, one size does not fit all.

Therefore, you cannot toot the horn that it has been a 'success' in this province. More and more kids are falling through the lack of funding cracks.

[Urbane]

I would dispute that fact with you Urb. From what I have read and talked to people about inclusion is that it really has been a good thing but there needs to be much more attention paid to classroom support for those that require CEAs and specialist teachers to fulfill the needs of comprehensive and full integration. You cannot expect one teacher to deal with the kaleidoscope of 26 or 29 kids in a classroom with an incredible range of learning challenges. After all, one size does not fit all.

I'm not sure what "fact" you are disputing. I said the the concept of inclusion is a good one and you agree. I said that it had been a success and you say it's been a good thing. We both agree there needs to be more support and more support is on the way in terms of more specialist teachers and more CEA's. How much more support is needed and how much more is affordable are debatable but other than that there seems to be a surprising amount of agreement between us. I hope that doesn't upset you too much -;)

[Urbane]

Urbane, you mentioned the programs for "gifted" kids. I happen to think those programs are a complete waste of funding. I would much rather see that funding go for more CEAs.

Bright kids simply don't need nearly as much educating. In fact they benefit from not being singled out in many ways.

CEA's would be a higher priority for me as well. As far as I know there is little if any money provided for gifted students now but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[omisimaw]

would be more appropriate to have that taking place in a special room ..... not integrated with kids that have no issues and want a chance at life too!

And who is supposed to fund the resources for a 'special room' and the qualified people to teach these kids?

The negotiated contract contain funds to hire the qualified people to teach.
What now you think they should have a say on the budgets and expenditures for facilities and facility maintenance....

[omisimaw]

Oh how it pains me when everyone has to take it to the most extreme to make their point.

Yes, there are days when my child is disruptive and challenging. On her most disruptive days I will whenever I possibly can keep her at home (which I shouldn't have to do) and by law I don't have to. I could just drop her off and go to work (you know, like you probably get to).

Her behaviour has never been aggressive or unsafe, it's more like "hey everyone...let's build a clubhouse!" During quiet time. I hear what you mean though. I don't anyone advocates an unsafe classroom. The deal is, if she had a CEA who help her stay on task everyone would benefit. Even if it is a shared CEA this would be appropriate, unfortunately there is no room at the CEA Inn for her.

I totally agree if a CEA can control the situation and it does not become disruptive to kids trying to study and learn.... it is then a matter of logistics and even if it were a shared CEA how many do you think a classroom could have to cover the over abundance of children with needs.

Why should normal kids or gifted kids have to settle with an average basic skill set as a win for the team. Where are the funds and specialists to encourage and mentor them and assist them in excelling?

There are plenty of parents out and about in the province who do not appreciate their child's educations being disrupted by the types of behaviour you used as examples.

Inclusion, diversity, burn a bra and hug a tree.... not everyone believes in that ideology .... and those people are also entitled to voice and recognition and an equal share of all resources for learning.

[flamingfingers]

also entitled to voice and recognition and an equal share of all resources for learning.

So where do you look for the $$ to PROVIDE the $$ for the 'resources for learning'? The ChristyLiberal money tree? Unicorn farts and LNG fantasies?

[KGT]

KGT - so you agree that without CUPE members there will be less help in the classroom?

The CUPE assistants are a lot cheaper than I thought. And my guess at 50/50 was off. But if you do the math, there will be a lot less assistance available.

75 x .7 = 52.5/.14 = 375 teachers + 75 x .3 = 22.5/.035 = 642 CEAs = 1,017 total help.

80/.14 = 571 teachers. Only 56% as much help available.

Assuming (I know) that a specialist teacher is twice as effective we arrive at effective help of 1,142 under the BCTF negotiated change. Under the government proposal we would have seen effective help of (375 x 2) + 642 = 1,392.

So "we" are paying more to have fewer people available to help SN kids. I just can't get it to the point in my head where that is better.

1. I asked. CEA support will actually increase, not decrease because of the language in the CUPE contract that was just ratified so your entire argument is moot.

2. CEAs are important and are very necessary to teachers and students but they have completely different jobs than specialist teachers. Think of the medical system. There are care aids, and nurses, and doctors, and specialists. Each has a different job to do and each is important. But when you have a patient with a difficult diagnosis, you don't send in a care aid, you send in the specialist.

[KGT]

Who is the government if not the people/taxpayers? You talk like the government is some mystical being with a never ending money.
ALL kids deserve a "free" and equal public education and the road we are headed down, with the BCTF leading the way, is promoting an end to that system. The BCTF repeatedly tells us how there needs to be more and more funding for SN kids whether it go directly to them in the form of more specialized teachers, more CEA's or more teachers over all because the SN kids have changed the composition of classes. If the BCTF was not at all involved in CS&C then it would be government issue and the voters could show some influence to affect change but the BCTF is determined to make CS&C their issue and unfortunately the voters have no influence over the BCTF.
As long as the public system, at the demand of the BCTF, continues to direct a disproportionate amount of resources to SN kids the private schools will only continue to become a more and more viable option for parents wanting their kids to get the best education available. Satisfying the ever increasing, and never ending, demands of the BCTF is only placing more and more strain on system that can not take much more strain especially as enrollment dwindles and the public gets tired of throwing money at a system that is no longer benefiting the majority of kids.

My point was that whether a child is mainstreamed or sent off to a special school, it is still the responsibility of the govt to educate that child. The costs will still be there - they will still have specialist teachers and counsellors and SLPs etc etc. just the location will change.

I happen to believe in inclusion but I'm upset that the funding has been cut.

[KGT]

It is hard when you have a family member with a disability and life is not always fair financially or emotionally.

But in all due respect that behaviour has a negative impact on more than just the teacher and would be more appropriate to have that taking place in a special room ..... not integrated with kids that have no issues and want a chance at life too!

If this child had a CEA, she would be MUCH less likely to have a "negative impact" on the classroom.

[omisimaw]

and if you had 7 kids and 7 cea's in the classroom all day every day how disruptive would that be....

or are you suggesting you only have one or two taking care of 7 or 8 and even potentially more and that somehow this disruptive behaviour would be controlled...

give them their own spot and they can be a disruptive as they like!

[omisimaw]

also entitled to voice and recognition and an equal share of all resources for learning.

So where do you look for the $$ to PROVIDE the $$ for the 'resources for learning'? The ChristyLiberal money tree? Unicorn farts and LNG fantasies?

again it has been given by the contract and that is what you work with .... it is not just for all the out of control kids .... there has to be a portion of the funding for others as well.

A gifted child for instance is just a much a SN and a normal kid with a slight reading or writing problem is just as much a SN....

You want unicorn farts well it is in your belief that everyone embraces diversity and inclusion. There is nothing further from the truth in that and anyone who thinks differently is just dreaming.....

[Osoyoos_Familyof4]

In my School District the "waiting time" for a specialist to identify a gifted learner is over a year long. Again, part of the reason the teachers walked the line for (even though all the negative nannies wanted to make it about the wages/benefits). Not only is this unacceptable, I can tell you with certainty that it also takes an aggressive parent to advocate hard for this to even happen (I know because my husband taught a very gifted little girl and he had to encourage her parents to lobby hard to get her tested as well as he lobbied hard on her behalf).

When a student is designated "gifted" they do get time with a Learning Resource teacher who will assign them and coach them with a more advanced curriculum tailored for them (called an IEP).

Now here's the rub: This particular girl was not only extremely smart and gifted, she was also disruptive as she falls on the Autism Spectrum and sometimes had trouble regulating herself.

If we follow the model that some people here advocate and take her out of the classroom because she's a disruption, and lets say we put her in a separate room with a CEA (who isn't qualified to teach, they are coaches who help manage behaviour and help re-direct students to follow a task when they are unable to be on task and assist in strategizing with the teacher to implement and IEP) and lets say that "special room" has everything from a child with severe Autism who has many maladaptive behaviours, or someone with a severe intellectual disability, and someone like my daughter with severe ADD/ADHD how on earth is this going to work?

There is simply not the resources, the time nor the actual physical space in most schools to implement the model you are advocating.

What the teachers were fighting for was a system of "more" (and I'm not talking about wages, although that was a part of it). We need more CEA's, more Specialist teachers (for both the gifted kids, and the kids who lag behind), more outside specialists (psychologists, social workers, occupational therapists, speech pathologists) and all this costs money. And dang-it YES, I think BC has the money and has the obligation to find it like other Provinces have (some with more, some with less resources than us).

Nobody wants to see a classroom unsafe full of challenging kids. Lets face it, the average child IS the norm and nobody wants to see their education lag because of a disruptive child. I as a parent feel terrible when my child has a bad day and I know her teacher was at her wits end with her. I do feel bad that my child takes up valuable time when her teacher must re-direct her from playing LEGO and being on task doing writing exercises 10 times in an hour. I feel bad that your average kid has to tolerate my little girl from having her hands all over them trying to get a hug from them...just because she wants one at that time whether they want to give one or not.

However what I do want is this: More specialized teachers to teach both special needs kids who struggle with learning, and a Specialized Teacher who can challenge the gifted kids with a separate IEP. I want more CEA's in the classroom who can help re-direct a child with behavior difficulties but normal intelligence. And NO, several CEA's in a classroom isn't disruptive! The kids know the chain of command (trust me). They understand a particular CEA may be in their classroom to sit with so-and-so and help them be on task. There isn't a power struggle, Teachers and CEA's work as a collaborative team. They have separate duties and all are aware of their role in the process. The CEA isn't competing for command with the teacher. The teacher stands at the front of the classroom, teaches the exercise and how it's done. The CEA tries their best to keep a lid on the behavior of a disruptive child and if needed will take them out for a short time to re-direct focus and then bring them back in. The lesson continues without major disruption and the teacher helps any individual child (average and extraordinary) with a concept if they're confused, and a CEA will assist in this way too with an atypical child.

It is quite rare that we will need to separate a child for any reason for more than a few moments. Sure there are exceptions when maybe you have a severely affected child with ______ diagnosis, but again this is rare and not the norm. We have such a child in our school (just one out of the entire school) and yes his CEA will pretty much just follow him around the school all day and wander the halls with him keeping him happy and safe. She will attempt to do some of his IEP in a separate area when he will tolerate a few minutes of learning. It works in the extreme when it has to is what I'm getting at.

But what the teachers were hoping from this contract (and they only very-marginally got it) was more "help" of specialists including CEA's and others. Smaller class sizes also facilitate an integrated classroom.

So, the children (like mine) who is disruptive, but more in a annoying way than an unsafe or totally disruptive way will likely get little to no support. She "may" get some limited (very limited) CEA time, but that's if we're lucky and we push hard and advocate until the administration agrees. Again, I am in a situation where I gave up work so that I could be at home with her when she is off the rails. This is a terrible burden on my family's finances and legally I am not obligated to stay home. I get no financial support from government to do this, I just do because I feel for my little girl and my heart hurts too bad to send her to school when she's upset. I am lucky, my teacher husband makes a whopping $64,500 a year after teaching for 12 years and a fulltime contract for 9 years. This makes our financial situation difficult as we're a family of four. Of course I know many live off less and yes, I feel for them too. But those in a lower income bracket have some government and private resources available to them that we don't because we fall into that "lower middle class bracket". And to those who think that teacher benefits are just "too rich" you might be interested in knowing we spend roughly $200.00 on medication for our child that isn't covered under the teacher drug plan. We also are spending $2400 on her teeth this December that isn't covered under her Dad's teacher dental plan.

It's not rocket science, it's about money for funding what is best and what is right. This is what the strike was about but so many blowhards on this forum hijacked the issues with vitriol and totally unnecessary negative "the sky is falling" antics.

[Urbane]

In my School District the "waiting time" for a specialist to identify a gifted learner is over a year long. Again, part of the reason the teachers walked the line for (even though all the negative nannies wanted to make it about the wages/benefits). Not only is this unacceptable, I can tell you with certainty that it also takes an aggressive parent to advocate hard for this to even happen (I know because my husband taught a very gifted little girl and he had to encourage her parents to lobby hard to get her tested as well as he lobbied hard on her behalf).

When a student is designated "gifted" they do get time with a Learning Resource teacher who will assign them and coach them with a more advanced curriculum tailored for them (called an IEP).

Now here's the rub: This particular girl was not only extremely smart and gifted, she was also disruptive as she falls on the Autism Spectrum and sometimes had trouble regulating herself.

If we follow the model that some people here advocate and take her out of the classroom because she's a disruption, and lets say we put her in a separate room with a CEA (who isn't qualified to teach, they are coaches who help manage behaviour and help re-direct students to follow a task when they are unable to be on task and assist in strategizing with the teacher to implement and IEP) and lets say that "special room" has everything from a child with severe Autism who has many maladaptive behaviours, or someone with a severe intellectual disability, and someone like my daughter with severe ADD/ADHD how on earth is this going to work?

There is simply not the resources, the time nor the actual physical space in most schools to implement the model you are advocating.

What the teachers were fighting for was a system of "more" (and I'm not talking about wages, although that was a part of it). We need more CEA's, more Specialist teachers (for both the gifted kids, and the kids who lag behind), more outside specialists (psychologists, social workers, occupational therapists, speech pathologists) and all this costs money. And dang-it YES, I think BC has the money and has the obligation to find it like other Provinces have (some with more, some with less resources than us).

Nobody wants to see a classroom unsafe full of challenging kids. Lets face it, the average child IS the norm and nobody wants to see their education lag because of a disruptive child. I as a parent feel terrible when my child has a bad day and I know her teacher was at her wits end with her. I do feel bad that my child takes up valuable time when her teacher must re-direct her from playing LEGO and being on task doing writing exercises 10 times in an hour. I feel bad that your average kid has to tolerate my little girl from having her hands all over them trying to get a hug from them...just because she wants one at that time whether they want to give one or not.

However what I do want is this: More specialized teachers to teach both special needs kids who struggle with learning, and a Specialized Teacher who can challenge the gifted kids with a separate IEP. I want more CEA's in the classroom who can help re-direct a child with behavior difficulties but normal intelligence. And NO, several CEA's in a classroom isn't disruptive! The kids know the chain of command (trust me). They understand a particular CEA may be in their classroom to sit with so-and-so and help them be on task. There isn't a power struggle, Teachers and CEA's work as a collaborative team. They have separate duties and all are aware of their role in the process. The CEA isn't competing for command with the teacher. The teacher stands at the front of the classroom, teaches the exercise and how it's done. The CEA tries their best to keep a lid on the behavior of a disruptive child and if needed will take them out for a short time to re-direct focus and then bring them back in. The lesson continues without major disruption and the teacher helps any individual child (average and extraordinary) with a concept if they're confused, and a CEA will assist in this way too with an atypical child.

It is quite rare that we will need to separate a child for any reason for more than a few moments. Sure there are exceptions when maybe you have a severely affected child with ______ diagnosis, but again this is rare and not the norm. We have such a child in our school (just one out of the entire school) and yes his CEA will pretty much just follow him around the school all day and wander the halls with him keeping him happy and safe. She will attempt to do some of his IEP in a separate area when he will tolerate a few minutes of learning. It works in the extreme when it has to is what I'm getting at.

But what the teachers were hoping from this contract (and they only very-marginally got it) was more "help" of specialists including CEA's and others. Smaller class sizes also facilitate an integrated classroom.

So, the children (like mine) who is disruptive, but more in a annoying way than an unsafe or totally disruptive way will likely get little to no support. She "may" get some limited (very limited) CEA time, but that's if we're lucky and we push hard and advocate until the administration agrees. Again, I am in a situation where I gave up work so that I could be at home with her when she is off the rails. This is a terrible burden on my family's finances and legally I am not obligated to stay home. I get no financial support from government to do this, I just do because I feel for my little girl and my heart hurts too bad to send her to school when she's upset. I am lucky, my teacher husband makes a whopping $64,500 a year after teaching for 12 years and a fulltime contract for 9 years. This makes our financial situation difficult as we're a family of four. Of course I know many live off less and yes, I feel for them too. But those in a lower income bracket have some government and private resources available to them that we don't because we fall into that "lower middle class bracket". And to those who think that teacher benefits are just "too rich" you might be interested in knowing we spend roughly $200.00 on medication for our child that isn't covered under the teacher drug plan. We also are spending $2400 on her teeth this December that isn't covered under her Dad's teacher dental plan.

It's not rocket science, it's about money for funding what is best and what is right. This is what the strike was about but so many blowhards on this forum hijacked the issues with vitriol and totally unnecessary negative "the sky is falling" antics.

While I agree with much of what you have to say I think that it's only fair to point out that there has been some hijacking and vitriol on both sides. Surely you've noticed all of the petty comments about the premier and her stilettos, photo-ops etc. And while many of us have agreed that more funding is necessary (and more funding is on the way) it's only reasonable to discuss how that money should be spent. I'm certainly pleased that the new money is going to be targeted where needed and not allocated by way of inflexible rules. As far as more money for supplies I'd suggest that as a starter the BCTF sit down with government officials and discuss the idea of removing the carbon tax from school boards. As well, school districts themselves need to look at how they're spending their money. Hopefully there will be a new and improved relationship between the government and the BCTF as we move forward because working together offers the best chance for improving the system.

[omisimaw]

As a taxpayer it is my decision on what I support and yes it is sad for you that you have a disabled kid but that is your responsibility, not mine and my tax dollar.... yours!

It is also not up to you to decide what my child learns, from where or to what degree. If I choose to have them in a non disruptive learning environment that is my right and my choice.

From all the whining and crying by the teachers on over crowded classrooms, classrooms maxed out with kids with a behaviour related special need etc etc. it is not getting better .... it is simply getting worse....

Lucky you .... you have made it your lives work to scream about your kid and your kids needs.... well too bad so sad...

Those with highly gifted kids parents have the same right, the normal high gifted kids without complications....

Your assertion that they get coaching and prodding to excel is so so so far off.... maybe you are being placated in your little part of the province but overall it is not as you think and the kids, the normal kids, no special gifts, no special needs, are the ones falling thru the cracks as the pendulum of focus zooms in on the ones who can never be, in some cases, self sufficient in life and at best will have a limited ability to sustain themselves. Besides it is physically impossible to have all these people jammed in a room, with kids acting out inappropriately, and expect there is not disruption.

PLUS it is getting pretty old to read all the body slamming against the CEA's.... this is a highly skilled and highly trained position and so far above a "coach" that it makes you wonder if people are buying into the teachers wish to portray them as simple classroom babysitters. And if you read their duties and responsibilities they are supposed to be supervised by the teacher who does not have the focus or time to deal with the student themselves ... supervised and directed LOL and who is to say the teacher even has the ability to carry out this supervision LOL LOL we already know they do not know how to balance their own affairs with all the whining of going broke over the loss of a few pay cheques (who would help this inept individuals if they ever truly FELL on hardship instead of creating it for themselves!)

But then there is a ton of over diagnosis going on as well. Another form of fear mongering that has crept into society and is now becoming a burden on society.... yes a burden.... prime example, you can not send little Johnny to school with a peanut butter sandwich... it might cause a problem for too many kids LOL.... but on the flip side the medical and scientific community is using that exact product, peanuts, to save lives of kids from malnutrition... something not right with the whole fear mongering over kids and peanuts in NA!!!

But the bottom line here is it does not matter if the employee is charged with teaching kids or sweeping floors they are not the employer, the business owner or a combination of the two and they are most definitely not the ones to have any direction or indirect control on the monies in our public coffers FOR ANY REASON.