Keystone pipeline

[wthwyt]

Try again without nested quotations - Jennylives

[UnknownResident]

I've heard numbers, and granted I can't remember where from, that when Canada exports 400,000 barrels of raw bitumen we send approx. 18,000 refining and upgrading jobs with it, effectively decreasing our national GDP by 0.2%.

Again, I am the only one I can tell that is acting like a true conservative. We need to slow down the tar sands. The tories have never done a risk assessment on the rapid growth of the tar sands. Slow down, save money, build the infrastructure at home over time. Of course these are conservative ideas, not put into action by current conservative governments.

[The Green Barbarian]

I've heard numbers, and granted I can't remember where from, that when Canada exports 400,000 barrels of raw bitumen we send approx. 18,000 refining and upgrading jobs with it, effectively decreasing our national GDP by 0.2%.

Again, I am the only one I can tell that is acting like a true conservative. We need to slow down the tar sands. The tories have never done a risk assessment on the rapid growth of the tar sands. Slow down, save money, build the infrastructure at home over time. Of course these are conservative ideas, not put into action by current conservative governments.

UR - it's easy to say we should build refineries - try it sometime - and see how fast you have David Suzuki, the Sierra club, Greenpeace, Elizabeth May and every other nut under the sun on your case fighting you every step of the way, no matter where you want to build your refinery. You can't ship it, you can't refine it - anything you try to do with oil these days, you can count on some idiot trying to stop you.

[UnknownResident]

UR - it's easy to say we should build refineries - try it sometime - and see how fast you have David Suzuki, the Sierra club, Greenpeace, Elizabeth May and every other nut under the sun on your case fighting you every step of the way, no matter where you want to build your refinery. You can't ship it, you can't refine it - anything you try to do with oil these days, you can count on some idiot trying to stop you.

If it's what Canadians demand, than so it shall be. You'll have those problems with everything you try to do with oil, refineries or pipelines, makes no difference. It's our resources, we should dictate what happens and where with it.

We're sending jobs south of the border with this pipeline - that you cannot argue with.

[wthwyt]

Try again without nested quotations - Jennylives

Owners of the oil tankers don't want pipeline from Canada to the States. They would lose millions for each run from middle-east that is cancelled. They more than likely have lobbyist flooding Washington big time.

[Homeownertoo]

Refining (ie. oilsands upgraders) is very expensive technology. No one wants them in their backyard. Such capacity already exists in the US. It's largely about dollars but obtaining environmental approvals is also an issue in Canada.

[Homeownertoo]

Try again without nested quotations - Jennylives

Owners of the oil tankers don't want pipeline from Canada to the States. They would lose millions for each run from middle-east that is cancelled. They more than likely have lobbyist flooding Washington big time.

Nonsense. Please offer some evidence for your opinion.

[wthwyt]

repost without nested quotations - Jennylives

[Homeownertoo]

That's not an answer. You have to show evidence the tanker owners control the US gov't. That has never even surfaced as an issue in any article I've read. Even googling it turned up nothing. Sorry, you gotta do better than that.

[Glacier]

If it's what Canadians demand, than so it shall be. You'll have those problems with everything you try to do with oil, refineries or pipelines, makes no difference. It's our resources, we should dictate what happens and where with it.

We're sending jobs south of the border with this pipeline - that you cannot argue with.

I used to think as you do. The problem is refineries face even more environmental hurdles than pipelines. The U.S. has not built a refinery in 30 years largely in part because they can't get EPA approval. The graph below shows the number of refineries operating in the U.S. The U.S. refining capacity has not kept up with demand, therefore, they rely on refined product from Canada.

Note that less refineries doesn't mean less production. Just as BC Hydro has been able to greatly increase electricity production without adding dams, refineries have been able to expand capacity to more than offset those that have shut down.

In the early 80's the U.S. had 15.66 million barrels per day of refining capacity with 254 plants operating. Today while the number of plants operating has dropped to just 137, the capacity of plants has risen to 17.59 mllion barrels per day. While smaller plants have closed, large plants have increased, expanded, and replaced old equipment with newer, more efficient equipment.

Unlike the U.S., we have had a few built since the 1970s, but again, the environmental approval process is very expensive and time consuming, so it's just not economically viable for a company to embark on such a risky venture. Some of our refined product is sent south, but it's not likely to increase much without government providing huge subsidies to the oil companies (and we all know how popular oil subsidies are).

[steven lloyd]

Ya don't build refineries on the basis of supply of raw material, you build them on the basis of long term demand for their output, since the assured supply of adequate raw material is no problem in Canada.

Absolutely. There are vast regions where we have barely begun to explore for oil (that we already know is there) such as the Arctic, Northwest Territories, off the coast of Haida Gwaii, etc. Perhaps if we lifted the restrictions on oil exploration and development it would be feasible to fund investment in oil refinery construction. Ongoing demand for the product is the last thing we will have to be worrrying about for many decades, likely centuries. Canada can still become a global oil superpower.

[NAB]

Ya don't build refineries on the basis of supply of raw material, you build them on the basis of long term demand for their output, since the assured supply of adequate raw material is no problem in Canada.

Absolutely. There are vast regions where we have barely begun to explore for oil (that we already know is there) such as the Arctic, Northwest Territories, off the coast of Haida Gwaii, etc. Perhaps if we lifted the restrictions on oil exploration and development it would be feasible to fund investment in oil refinery construction. Ongoing demand for the product is the last thing we will have to be worrrying about for many decades, likely centuries. Canada can still become a global oil superpower.

Jeeesh! Are you suggesting we (BC) could perhaps feed the northern or southern gateway without piping oil and gas from Alberta to do it Steven? ;-) Even perhaps profitably feed our own provincial gasoline demand at half the present price or even less?

Nab

[The Green Barbarian]

Ya don't build refineries on the basis of supply of raw material, you build them on the basis of long term demand for their output, since the assured supply of adequate raw material is no problem in Canada.

Absolutely. There are vast regions where we have barely begun to explore for oil (that we already know is there) such as the Arctic, Northwest Territories, off the coast of Haida Gwaii, etc. Perhaps if we lifted the restrictions on oil exploration and development it would be feasible to fund investment in oil refinery construction. Ongoing demand for the product is the last thing we will have to be worrrying about for many decades, likely centuries. Canada can still become a global oil superpower.

Jeeesh! Are you suggesting we (BC) could perhaps feed the northern or southern gateway without piping oil and gas from Alberta to do it Steven? ;-) Even perhaps profitably feed our own provincial gasoline demand at half the present price or even less?

Nab

dare to dream Nab, dare to dream.

[The Green Barbarian]

U.S. President Barack Obama made a choice last week: He chose Venezuela over Canada.

That’s what he did when he rejected the proposed Keystone XL pipeline that would have taken oilsands oil from Alberta to the Gulf Coast of Texas.

That pipeline would have delivered 700,000 barrels of oil every day from Canada (and from a new oilfield called Bakken that straddles the North Dakota-Saskatchewan border).

Which is almost precisely the amount of oil Venezuela now ships to the United States, to those same refineries in Texas.

With one fell swoop, Obama could have replaced conflict oil, from a belligerent, authoritarian OPEC regime, with ethical oil from Canada.

But he didn’t.

Hugo Chavez, the bully ruler of Venezuela, is a serial human rights violator.

He’s a Marxist, too, but that’s a different matter. According to impeccably liberal human rights groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, Chavez has shredded civil liberties in Venezuela — crushing independent labour unions, shutting down newspapers and radio stations that disagree with him, corrupting the political system and abusing Aboriginal people.

It won’t surprise you to learn that a ruler who treats his own people that way threatens other countries, too.

Chavez routinely menaces Colombia, a true democracy, even massing troops on the border and giving cover support to narco-terrorists seeking to undermine Colombia’s government.

And Chavez’s new ally is none other than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad — the two men share a hatred for Americans. And they have something else in common: If it weren’t for oil revenues, they’d both have been toppled by now.

Venezuela sells an enormous amount of oil to the U.S. About 800,000 barrels a day. At a hundred bucks a barrel, that’s $80 million a day.

That’s about $30 billion a year America pays to its greatest enemy in the western hemisphere.

It’s not just conflict oil, though. Venezuelan oil is some of the most carbon-intense oil in the world — even more so than Canada’s oilsands.

So by replacing Venezuelan imports with Keystone XL oilsands oil, not only would Obama have been doing the right thing geopolitically, it would have reduced America’s carbon footprint — which Obama claims to care about.

And it’s more than environmental.

Venezuelan oil tankers don’t give a lot of jobs to Americans. A few at the ports, but that’s about it. Whereas a new pipeline coming down from Canada provides a lot of “shovel-ready” jobs for Americans still reeling from the worst recession in that country since the 1930s.

Not only would the pipeline construction create jobs, but Keystone XL would have been the largest property taxpayer in many of the counties through which it flowed.

But Obama made another choice this week: Hollywood celebrities over working men and women.

See, those Hollywood celebrities — mainly airheads, such as Daryl Hannah, or pro-Chavez socialists, such as Sean Penn — will raise tens of millions of dollars for Obama’s re-election now that he nixed Canadian oil.

Whereas the thousands of American construction workers — well, they’re from states like Nebraska that weren’t going to vote Democrat anyways.

Obama’s decision is a disgrace, but it’s America’s business.

So now our business is to sell our oil to Asia.

Not just for our economic success, but to prove we are an independent country.

If Obama doesn’t want our oil, well, the rest of the world does.

Obama’s decisions are bad for America. They’re bad for U.S. jobs, U.S. energy security and U.S. foreign political entanglements.

But they’re bad for us, too. Canadians love America — we did before Obama came along, we do now, and we will after Obama is gone.

But let’s not sit by the phone waiting for Obama to love us in return.

Let’s open up markets in Asia and grow up as a country — a country with friends and trading partners around the world.

It’s about self-respect — and it will make America respect us more, too.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/01/20/keystone-cop-out

[UnknownResident]

Is Ezra starting to sound like a broke record? When most people run out of talking points they stop talking, this guy just blathers on... Zzzzz... Wake me up when Ezra is done encouraging sending Canadian jobs south.....