Summerland Senior Attacked

[acidrain]

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-33213-21-.htm#33213

What is wrong with people? I was really upset when I read this story. To attack a senior like that is cowardly.

"The accused was subsequently observed by several witnesses throwing the victim to the floor of his vehicle and punching him in the face numerous times. The victim sustained serious facial injuries"

Its disturbing that this individual is known to police. Our criminal justice system needs to shape up and deal with these goons. It seems like many of the news stories we see are of repeat offenders.

I hope the victim is okay. My heart goes out to him and his family.

[ferri]

isn't that horrible? a 79 year old just putting his groceries in his car and that happens. :-X man it would be fun to get my hands on the idiot that did it. what a big, tough guy. :143:

[kgcayenne]

Maybe you should get your hands on the m0ron, goodness knows that he'll get off quite easily (already known to police) after claiming to be a victim of drug addiction or mental illness.

Why do I get this sinking feeling that there are more cases of mental illness contrived to enable criminal behaviour/addiction than there are that are diagnosed as true illnesses requiring treatment.

[Madhue]

Maybe you should get your hands on the m0ron, goodness knows that he'll get off quite easily (already known to police) after claiming to be a victim of drug addiction or mental illness.

Why do I get this sinking feeling that there are more cases of mental illness contrived to enable criminal behaviour/addiction than there are that are diagnosed as true illnesses requiring treatment.

actually clinically speaking there are a very high percentage of people that have mental illness that are considered addicted. The issue at hand is not their presence but what support is available to them.

we are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-60 percent od the drugs abusing population.

Recent epidemiologic studies have shown that between 30 percent and 60 percent of drug abusers have concurrent mental health diagnoses including personality disorders, major depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder

http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVo ... l14N4.html


But again the issue becomes what agency is equipped to deal with concurrent disorders. Adult Mental Health is very reluctant handle them as clients, most addictions agencies struggle with treating mental health issues.

Personally I think its a societal cop out to suggest such actions are claimed to elude prosecution, fact is they do not avoid prosecution just enter into a different vein of the judicial system.

[ferri]

you must have just read the same study i did Madhue! :)

the same day (or maybe the day after) i got this:

PRIME MINISTER LAUNCHES NATIONAL MENTAL HEALTH COMMISSION


NEW BODY TO IMPROVE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR CANADIANS SUFFERING WITH MENTAL ILLNESS
August 31, 2007
Ottawa, Ontario

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced the final selection of the Board of Directors for the newly created Mental Health Commission of Canada. Speaking at a gathering of international leaders in the mental health field, the Prime Minister said the selection of the new board members, as well as the chairs of the cross-country network of advisory committees, means the Commission is now formally set to launch its activities.

“The board and advisory committee members represent the best people in the mental health field in Canada today,” said the Prime Minister. “Their work will improve quality of life for Canadians and their families dealing with mental illness.”

In Budget 2007, Canada’s New Government committed $55 million over five years towards a mental health commission. The creation of the Mental Health Commission of Canada was a key recommendation of a Standing Senate Committee report on mental health, mental illness and addiction in Canada. It is the cornerstone of the Government’s strategy to address mental health issues in Canada.

“I can tell you that there is already widespread enthusiasm for the creation of the Commission,” said co-author of the report and Commission Chair Michael Kirby. “I cannot count the number of offers of help and proposals for collaboration that have already flooded in.”

The announcement came during the 2007 International Initiative on Mental Health Leadership Exchange and Conference. This conference brings together leaders in the mental health sector from around the world for collaboration, networking and the sharing of best practices. More information on the Conference can be found at: http://www.iimhl.com.

[Madhue]

you must have just read the same study i did Madhue! :)

Yeah I saw that 55 million over 5 years is bugger all. Unfortunately in our area we will be seeing a projected increase of such folks, as the Olympics come closer and the gentrification of Vancouver lower class area kicks into high gear many of these people suffering form mental health issues will find themselves recipients of free 'Greyhound Therapy' many will land in the S OK. Already there has been a noted increase of the homeless in our area. I project this will be double by 2010.

[ferri]

you must have just read the same study i did Madhue! :)

Yeah I saw that 55 million over 5 years is bugger all. Unfortunately in our area we will be seeing a projected increase of such folks, as the Olympics come closer and the gentrification of Vancouver lower class area kicks into high gear many of these people suffering form mental health issues will find themselves recipients of free 'Greyhound Therapy' many will land in the S OK. Already there has been a noted increase of the homeless in our area. I project this will be double by 2010.

something i find strange is that the usual faces i see on my walks disappear and now there are all new faces. it's like it creates a vacuum that must be filled. i am guessing the old faces are in jail for a month or two and will be out soon.

[kgcayenne]

Maybe you should get your hands on the m0ron, goodness knows that he'll get off quite easily (already known to police) after claiming to be a victim of drug addiction or mental illness.

Why do I get this sinking feeling that there are more cases of mental illness contrived to enable criminal behaviour/addiction than there are that are diagnosed as true illnesses requiring treatment.

actually clinically speaking there are a very high percentage of people that have mental illness that are considered addicted. The issue at hand is not their presence but what support is available to them.

we are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-60 percent od the drugs abusing population.

Thanks Madhue. I wound up looking into causes of mental illness, and found interesting information. I guess I am SOOO dubious about tactics of criminal lawyers, that it's easy for me to see the 'contrived illness' angle. I was surprised to find out that

The following are statistics from various sources about the causes of Mental illness:
12.9% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had migraines in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)
16.8% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had an injury event in the last month in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)
17% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had asthma in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)
21.2% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had diseases of the circulatory system in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)
47.7% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had diseases of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissue in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)
5.6% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had stomach, duodenal or gastrointestinal ulcers in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW) 7.2% of people with long term mental or behavioural problems also had bronchitis and emphysema in Australia (ABS, 2004, Australia’s Health 2004, AIHW)

from: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/m/mental_illness/causes.htm

[Madhue]

Thanks Madhue. I wound up looking into causes of mental illness, and found interesting information. I guess I am SOOO dubious about tactics of criminal lawyers, that it's easy for me to see the 'contrived illness' angle. I was surprised to find out that

I'm not too sure as to what your getting at in your post.

[kgcayenne]

I made this statement about the person that attacked the senior.

Maybe you should get your hands on the m0ron, goodness knows that he'll get off quite easily (already known to police) after claiming to be a victim of drug addiction or mental illness.

Then I wrote

Why do I get this sinking feeling that there are more cases of mental illness contrived to enable criminal behaviour/addiction than there are that are diagnosed as true illnesses requiring treatment.

And you responded with:

actually clinically speaking there are a very high percentage of people that have mental illness that are considered addicted. The issue at hand is not their presence but what support is available to them.

we are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-60 percent od the drugs abusing population.

Recent epidemiologic studies have shown that between 30 percent and 60 percent of drug abusers have concurrent mental health diagnoses including personality disorders, major depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder

http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVo ... l14N4.html


But again the issue becomes what agency is equipped to deal with concurrent disorders. Adult Mental Health is very reluctant handle them as clients, most addictions agencies struggle with treating mental health issues.

Personally I think its a societal cop out to suggest such actions are claimed to elude prosecution, fact is they do not avoid prosecution just enter into a different vein of the judicial system.

It made me curious as to what the causes of mental illness could be, so I looked it up. Your post lead to a change in my opinion. This man who was attacked is a victim, and I guess it would irritate me to think that the attacker may claim to be a victim also. Which really, isn't something that has been stated anywhere. Soooo umm yah... I suppose I assume that this poor man who was attacked won't see justice any time soon.

[Madhue]

It made me curious as to what the causes of mental illness could be, so I looked it up.

I followed the your posts but there was a gap in your logic, now I see it....in truth you looked up only part of it per se... what you posted was the 'medical model' another model 'social model' which is absent in your post. Social conditioning is believed to play a strong component in ones mental health. This would include aspects of a human development and growth, historical abuse, early sexualized behavior, relationships with family and friends and stress.

Some folks even include a 'spiritual model'.... others include all three. Which makes sense, we as human beings are more that just the biological make up.

Your post lead to a change in my opinion. This man who was attacked is a victim, and I guess it would irritate me to think that the attacker may claim to be a victim also.

Worse over many of these folks have been abandoned by a variety of services, or services that are simply not realistically accessible to them. Like for example adults with concurrent disorders. Just imagine how well a delusional man that sees aliens that give him 'special messages' does in AA/ NA. Its simply not very effective. again we are looking at 30-60% of the addicted population... (keep in mind addiction is viewed as a mental health issue by some).

Imagine if we treated cancer patience with the same level of callousness as we do people with mental health disorders.

I suppose I assume that this poor man who was attacked won't see justice any time soon.

There are provisions in the Canadian Criminal Code for Mental Disorders, Forensic Mental Heath Services for example. But I guess that has to do with more how one would define justice. Some people are still of the archaic mentality of a pound of flesh.

[acidrain]

Getting back to what the story of the "known" victim, I'm not sure if we can assume that the suspect is suffering from mental illness. A lot of times it's assumed those with mental illness such as schizophrenia are violent when in fact, studies have shown otherwise.

Mental illness can certainly be turned on by an addiction. But lets not forget that people make the choice before they become addicts whether they take the first hit. It's the same ridicule that we put smokers through when they develop cancer. I consider an addiction a preventable disease.

I do think that we make too many excuses for criminals. I'm not sure what "mental disease" one would have to have in order to punch an elderly man in the face for no apparent reason.

[Madhue]

Getting back to what the story of the "known" victim, I'm not sure if we can assume that the suspect is suffering from mental illness. A lot of times it's assumed those with mental illness such as schizophrenia are violent when in fact, studies have shown otherwise.

I'm not too sure what studies your referring to however most studies would suggest for the most part people with mental health issues are harmless they would also suggest they had a degree of unpredictability and when agitated have the potential to be come erratic. Schizophrenia is only one element and a complex one at that with subtypes and other plausible attached disorders.

Substance use

The relationship between schizophrenia and drug use is complex, meaning that a clear causal connection between drug use and schizophrenia has been difficult to tease apart. There is strong evidence that using certain drugs can trigger either the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in some people. It may also be the case, however, that people with schizophrenia use drugs to overcome negative feelings associated with both the commonly prescribed antipsychotic medication and the condition itself, where negative emotion, paranoia and anhedonia are all considered to be core features.[57] Amphetamines trigger the release of dopamine and excessive dopamine function is believed to be responsible for many symptoms of schizophrenia (known as the dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia), amphetamines may worsen schizophrenia symptoms.[58] Schizophrenia can be triggered by heavy use of hallucinogenic or stimulant drugs.[59] One study suggests that cannabis use can contribute to psychosis, though the researchers suspected cannabis use was only a small component in a broad range of factors that can cause psychosis.[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophre ... stance_use

Substance use and schizophrenia have had a long standing relationship.

Mental illness can certainly be turned on by an addiction. But lets not forget that people make the choice before they become addicts whether they take the first hit.

I disagree I don't think people choose to be addicts, yes we are responsible for our actions there is some information that suggests people with mental health issue attempt to correct these 'imbalances' through self medicating.

Some mental illness sufferers attempt to correct their illnesses by use of certain drugs. Depression, for example, is notorious for being a trigger of alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, or other mind-altering drug use. While this may provide immediate relief of some symptoms such as anxiety, it may evoke and/or exacerbate some symptoms of several kinds of mental illnesses that are already latently present, and may lead to addiction/dependence, among other side effects of long-term use of the drug. The theory that drug dependence or addiction results from self-medication for the distress caused by a pre-existing condition was introduced in 1974 by David F. Duncan and Edward J. Khantzian in independent publications. This theory has come to be known as the self-medication hypothesis. For example, sufferers of post-traumatic stress disorder are prone to self-medication, as well as many individual without this diagnosis which have suffered from (mental) trauma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-medication

I consider an addiction a preventable disease.

Its a common misconception and but a summation that is flawed in logic.

The DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), lists dependency of substances as known disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Cod ... _Disorders

Addiction like cancer has some things that may lower risks such as limiting exposure however in some cases people have predispositions, genetic traits and so forth. IT would be nice to believe that morally corrupt or people with weak inner fortitudes suffer from addictions but that is simply a fallacy.

I do think that we make too many excuses for criminals.

I think we as a society make too many excuses not provide care for such people.
Lets face it these are not new issues and society seems to continue to make the same foolish choices in dealing with these issues and to no avail.

I'm not sure what "mental disease" one would have to have in order to punch an elderly man in the face for no apparent reason.

here's one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

[acidrain]

We don't know from this story whether the person that did this suffered from an addiction or a mental disorder. It would be highly probable considering the circumstances.

I have a lot of personal experience with people with addictions and those with mental disorders. I have found those that suffer from an addiction to potentially be very violent and desperate. They will do anything to get their next fix. They will beg, borrow and steal even from their own family. There are many, many addicts that get all sorts of chances.

Many will go into rehab and some will even have the support of their family even despite what they've endured. If you want to overcome solely an addiction, its really a choice. You check into rehab (NA, AA) and you get help. Ask any recovering alcoholic or drug addict. It's not easy but its possible if you want to be sober. There are many that have chosen a different path. You can have every avenue available whether it be rehab, transitional homes, etc but it comes down to their own self determination and whether they want to help themselves.

I agree that severe drug use can trigger a variety of mental illnesses. But you look at the mental health act and it protects the rights of each individual before the general public. To get someone admitted for a mental disease is long and lengthy. They have to typically be a threat to others or themselves before action is even considered. It's big debate whether people should be locked away if they have the potential to harm others. What do we do with those that we know are a threat to society?

If the person is a known threat, their issues should no doubt be addressed. But how many times have sentences been leniant because a person has fetal alcohol syndrome, aboriginal background or other factors such as an addiction? It is telling those that continue to walk through a revolving door of the justice system that their behavior is understandable. This sends the opposite message to these people that their disorders are special and their behavior will consequently be excused.

There are many varieties of mental illnesses but I don't think that mental illness should ever excuse the behavior of a violent act. There has to be a point where there is a fine line of protecting the general public. I don't think most people would be against a mental ill person being admitted to a facility to get the help they need. It's the fact that many of these people are aloud to walk free with judges carrying out sentences with the knowledge of the high probabilty of reoffending (when someone has clearly shown they do not know right from wrong). Is this fair to future victims that will have to live with their own life sentence? Why do we examine the rights of the accused before we examine the rights of victims?

When I hear of an elderly man getting punched in the face, it is highly probable that this was provoked by someone with severe issues that should be examined by professionals. I don't hold out much hope that this person will get the help that they need.

[Madhue]

I have a lot of personal experience with people with addictions and those with mental disorders. I have found those that suffer from an addiction to potentially be very violent and desperate. They will do anything to get their next fix.

I'm glad you have some experience however not every addict is one that acts of desperation, there are plenty of addicts that lead normal lives and do not fit the desperate Hollywood image of an addict.

Many will go into rehab and some will even have the support of their family even despite what they've endured. If you want to overcome solely an addiction, its really a choice. You check into rehab (NA, AA) and you get help. Ask any recovering alcoholic or drug addict. It's not easy but its possible if you want to be sober. There are many that have chosen a different path. You can have every avenue available whether it be rehab, transitional homes, etc but it comes down to their own self determination and whether they want to help themselves.

well for clarification purposes first off rehab and AA/NA are not synonymous, AA/NA are maintenance programs not rehab. Secondly AA/NA is only one of many models that deal with addictions, the concept of 'in recovery' tends to be limited to the disease model thus subscribed to by it followers. Fact is there tends to be very low success rates for AA/NA. However those that subscribe to their doctrine do well.
you'll find an example of these models here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction# ... planations

I'm afraid its not as cut and dry.

I agree that severe drug use can trigger a variety of mental illnesses.

Yes but also vice versa mental health issues can trigger dependency or use. Its a two way street.

But you look at the mental health act and it protects the rights of each individual before the general public. To get someone admitted for a mental disease is long and lengthy. They have to typically be a threat to others or themselves before action is even considered. It's big debate whether people should be locked away if they have the potential to harm others. What do we do with those that we know are a threat to society?

I don't think there is a big debate at all, there are many sociopaths serving long sentences and labeled Dangerous Offenders.

If the person is a known threat, their issues should no doubt be addressed. But how many times have sentences been leniant because a person has fetal alcohol syndrome, aboriginal background or other factors such as an addiction? It is telling those that continue to walk through a revolving door of the justice system that their behavior is understandable. This sends the opposite message to these people that their disorders are special and their behavior will consequently be excused.

I think you may need look closer into the provisions for Aboriginal Offenders they don't read that they get away with inappropriate acts but suggest alterer consequences such as restorative justices or tribal laws. The thought of those two that were expelled by their Band in Alaska to a remote Island for two years comes to mind. Given three hots and cot or sitting on some frozen Island for two years I'd take the prison sentence.
You mention FASD is the same as addressing a person with a brain injury and seeing if they are cognately fit for trial. Should there be better resources for FASD youth in the corrections environment... you bet but we do not supply that help, so they go through mainstream corrections programs, not gaining new skills and only coming out to re offend.
As for addiction well people do not get lower sentencing but they may get some help in fact if you talk to parents with children with substance use issues that are very =high risk they will tell you that the only help they get is from corrections. Rather sad when you think about it, youth have to get a criminal record just to get help.

There are many varieties of mental illnesses but I don't think that mental illness should ever excuse the behavior of a violent act. There has to be a point where there is a fine line of protecting the general public. I don't think most people would be against a mental ill person being admitted to a facility to get the help they need. It's the fact that many of these people are aloud to walk free with judges carrying out sentences with the knowledge of the high probabilty of reoffending (when someone has clearly shown they do not know right from wrong). Is this fair to future victims that will have to live with their own life sentence? Why do we examine the rights of the accused before we examine the rights of victims?

In never excuses the behavior but allows understanding of why they acted that way. There is a huge difference between a deviant child and one that acts that way due to a mental illness for example. And people don't walk free if diagnosed with mental health issue, they just enter a different stream of supervision, restrictions and assistance.

When I hear of an elderly man getting punched in the face, it is highly probable that this was provoked by someone with severe issues that should be examined by professionals. I don't hold out much hope that this person will get the help that they need.

Well I think instead of holding out for that person to be punished maybe we as a society need to do is hold out that the powers that be address his issues. Maybe we need to hold our leaders as accountable as we do our offenders.