Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

twobits
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by twobits »

Todd, maybe some of us should go down there and throw eggs at both sides for providing misinformation to suit their position.

This whole cluster uck of a situation lays squarely at the feet of our City Council beginning right from the moment of evicting long term business tenants on a vague notion of redevelopment of the Marina Property. Many of us scratched our heads as to why such a thing would have been done with only a one year lease to Trio. And we waited.
Then, the teaser of conceptual drawings including 25% of Skaha Park Lands. But no financing yet cuz you don't get financing until you get approval. And that approval now has the hurdle of convincing people that a water slide is part of the package and it is on public lands. Someone please tell me where in hades was it that we, the public owners of this land, understood that a Marina upgrade that resulted in the eviction eviction of a business was going to include a further 25% of park lands and a water slide?
I am a self employed businessman slash entrepreneur. Never in all my years of wheels and deals have I ever seen such an example of pure business incompetence displayed. One could not write a soap opera script to match. In my humble world the procedure would have gone something like this.......
City expresses an interest in parties coming forward with ideas for the redevelopment of Skaha Marina. Any and all interested parties present their proposals including detailed plans, land requirements, and financial backing that will be provided on approval of those plans. You then put out to the owners of those public lands, we the taxpayers...."the proposals" (note the plural cuz if there was only one, it is time to re evaluate as to why) for scrutiny and discussion. If it is a sensible plan, the owners (taxpayers) will consent with only a minority of objectors as is always the case.
What you do not do is put out an expression of interest and terminate a long standing business on the basis of a one year lease with.......more info to follow. And when that info does become available, even conceptually, it is no longer just a Skaha Marina upgrade as originally described, it has become an encroachment on public park lands that have been historically open green space bought and paid for by generations of local citizens. Further, you do not buy into deals that promise a profit share of private business that is conceptual and unproven in hopes it might make the deal more palatable to the naive. Public lands require a much higher duty of care and responsibility to the owners.
This whole thing has been a "keep them in the dark till we have to" crime.
I am not against Marina enhancement. I am not against water slides. What I am against is being kept in the dark like a mushroom waiting for a higher power to pluck me and uck me.

What in hades were most of you thinking when you voted in this kind of leadership and apprentices?
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pentona
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by pentona »

Well spoken, twobits. Since its coming up to Peach season and Peachfest, perhaps we could "IMPEACH" the entire lot of them outta city hall? LOL Pretty sad group that someone elected.
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fluffy
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by fluffy »

pentona wrote:Pretty sad group that someone elected.


Yeah, them pesky majorities.
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Darkre
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by Darkre »

Everyone needs to realize that the decision to award Trio the lease for these parks was done by the previous council. So this Cluster was created and kept silent by the old council not this new one. In fact the EOI included the possibility of rezoning the land for use as a hotel or other uses. Imagine the uproar if the old council had approved a hotel for this site like they suggested was a possible use for the land. Good thing we voted most of that council out isn't it!!!

Twobits, the original Expression of Interest was listed while the Vas was still a member of council.
The discussions with Trio began and Trio's proposal was chosen as the best option while the Vas was still a member of council.
Skaha Marine was given notice that it's lease would not be renewed while the Vas was on council.
The Vas was on council when the 1 year lease was agreed to.
The Vas was on council and didn't say a word about this either.
This process began in May 2013, closed in June 2013 and not one member from that council said anything about the expansion plans they had agreed to. Maybe there are confidentiality reasons why nothing could be said???


As to where in Hades the public had access to this information:
The Expression of Interest was listed in May 2013 included the use of up to 3 parcels of land at that location.

Here is a quote from the EOI about what the city would like to see at that location:
"The goal of the City is to create some vibrancy at both of these significant waterfront locations. The types of developments that could meet this vision include: hotel, restaurant, retail, marina, sports, entertainment or recreation."

Here is another that quotes the current zoning designation for the properties:
"Zoning Bylaw 2011-23 designates the lease areas as P2 – Parks and Recreation and allows for the following Permitted Uses:

 Carnival
 Community garden
 Government service
 Indoor recreation
 Marina
 Outdoor amusement, entertainment and recreation
 Outdoor market
 Public parking lot
 Accessory use, building or structure

As stated in the introduction the City is interested in making this part of Skaha Lake vibrant and adventurous and is would be prepared to consider other uses subject to an amendment of the Zoning Bylaw subject to all due public process and passage by Council of the required amending bylaws."
ToddT
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by ToddT »

I think the writing has been on the wall since a certain "shoeless" development was put up.
mountain sky
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by mountain sky »

To go back to the original thread topic. I am writing this from the new Skaha Bistro using their very customer friendly secure internet. Only one table empty and four groups of people in line to order. This has been my 3rd time here since I got here in Penticton for the summer late last week. Food is fresh, good and love the "Columbian" flair. Give it a try before you tear it down!!!!
We have enough negativity in this town and need to promote start-ups and people who have the "guts" to put it on the line.

And no I have no interest in the plaza other than own properties in vicinity. Haven't tried pizza but used convenience store. They are just starting out, trying to find the right mix of inventory, probably would do well with beach toys and floaties in mix.
DblDwn11
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by DblDwn11 »

So I've read through this forum and the other one regarding the Trio proposal.

What I can't understand is how you expect mayor & council to communicate any more effectively.

My guess is that most of those protesting want a referendum on any decision that suits their fancy....

Who's paying for the referendums?

Why bother even electing a council (and quite of few of those with protest signs didn't vote) if you aren't going to allow them to manage the city?

During the election cycle, in these forums, people lamented how Penticton used to be a destination for tourist families, used to be a place to start your family, watch them grow and start families of their own.

A place to stay forever.

So, in reviewing this proposal, we have a company willing to invest in the Skaha waterfront. Improve the existing facilities (which the past lease-holders did not do), build a marina, restaurant and yes, a waterslide. Build a place for families, residents and tourists to create memories. The trickle down effect of that is an improved view of the south end of the city, maybe some optimism and improvements to the privately owned accommodations and amenities.

Keeping in mind that the majority of this project already exists as a marina, boat launch etc..
25% of park-land is misleading and those using that number know it.

The raw tax-payer cost for this project?

Zero.

Just an open-mind is required.

That's my 'two-bits'.
ToddT
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by ToddT »

DblDwn11 wrote:
A place to stay forever.



If they keep this up it will be a nice place to "visit."
twobits
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by twobits »

Darkre wrote:
Twobits, the original Expression of Interest was listed while the Vas was still a member of council.
The discussions with Trio began and Trio's proposal was chosen as the best option while the Vas was still a member of council.
Skaha Marine was given notice that it's lease would not be renewed while the Vas was on council.
The Vas was on council when the 1 year lease was agreed to.
The Vas was on council and didn't say a word about this either.
This process began in May 2013, closed in June 2013 and not one member from that council said anything about the expansion plans they had agreed to. Maybe there are confidentiality reasons why nothing could be said???


Yes you are correct that it started with the previous council. And it was an call for an expression of interest. I don't think anyone would disagree with such an action done properly. But also do not forget that this was at a conceptual stage and Vas was not the Mayor, Litke was. With the benefit of retrospect now, the overuse of in camera by Litke, and the tail wagging the dog behind the backs of council, I have to wonder how many of the sitting councilors then voting, knew what was actually being formulated behind the scenes except for one individual on council besides Litke.
Here's a reminder of Litke's management style. Does anyone remember the Elvena Slump debacle? Where the City's solicitors were instructed to send a cease and desist letter to Ms. Slump about criticizing Penticton City Administration. Most Councillors went on record that they had no idea that this drastic action was being taken.
Except for the one that had Litke at his election party headquarters.
Just maybe the apple does not fall far from the tree. I am more convinced than ever that Litke fell on his sword and didn't run because he knew he would have been trounced and by doing so, a like minded clone that was not yet covered in mud could take his place.
Does anyone with a right mind think that Vas would have been in favour of a Hotel on City property. Or a Commercial for profit water slide on Skaha Park Lawn?

ETA- Please note I said Skaha Park Lawn. I have no trouble with redevelopment of the existing Marina property, it's adjacent asphalt, the parking lot portion, or the existing boat launch area. What I do object to is any encroachment on existing green space park land for any type of permanent commercial development. Water front park land such as this is priceless. That is entirely re enforced by the rezoning of South Beach Drive properties from future parkland to single family residential. While the plan may have been to acquire these prime waterfront properties to expand Skaha Park, it has become obvious that the value of this waterfront land is just too expensive to acquire. Given this realization and acceptance of being cost prohibitive, why would you reduce the the public space of the remaining park for private enterprise? Countless communities would slather for such an asset of which no more is being made. IMO, the footprint of the proposed water slide is on land that is as sacrosanct as a graveyard. There is plenty of other available land for water slides. And if the Trio Group is suggesting that a water slide is key to the viability of their plan at this location, then they can pound salt and go back to the drawing board of their business plan.
Many hundreds of acres of Stanley Park in Vancouver are raw and undeveloped. Maybe a few trails. I wonder what the reaction in Vancouver would be if Trio proposed a Marina/restaurant and water slide on "just a cpl of acres"? After all, it is highly unused anyway.
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twobits
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by twobits »

ToddT wrote:I think the writing has been on the wall since a certain "shoeless" development was put up.


And we will never know if the apprentice wore shoes behind the bar developing his resume or under the table at council meetings.
Am thinking at least flip flops. Which ironically is a bit of a cliche when speaking of elected officials.
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Darkre
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by Darkre »

twobits wrote:Yes you are correct that it started with the previous council. And it was an call for an expression of interest. I don't think anyone would disagree with such an action done properly. But also do not forget that this was at a conceptual stage and Vas was not the Mayor, Litke was. With the benefit of retrospect now, the overuse of in camera by Litke, and the tail wagging the dog behind the backs of council, I have to wonder how many of the sitting councilors then voting, knew what was actually being formulated behind the scenes except for one individual on council besides Litke...

Does anyone with a right mind think that Vas would have been in favour of a Hotel on City property. Or a Commercial for profit water slide on Skaha Park Lawn?

Evey member of council in 2013 would have been fully aware of what Trio was proposing. If they weren't they would be yelling from the rooftops right now that they were duped into agreeing to this. Do you really think Vas would be silent right now if he had been blindsided by a backroom deal. If you think Vas would blindly vote on a proposal without knowing the details of that proposal I don't know why you think he would have made a good mayor. He may well have voted against this but to insinuate that there was a plot afoot to sneak this in is insulting to every member of that council including Vas. I didn't like Vassiliki but I will give him credit for being informed and vocal about the issues that were brought before council.

Council would have been presented with every expression of interest that was submitted. Staff would have ranked each proposal in presenting them to council but it was ultimately councils decision which proposals to proceed with. In this case the top proposals were shortlisted and asked to provide more detailed information regarding their submissions. I believe they met with council to discuss their plans as well due to comments made by the Trio representative (I won't argue that it is difficult to find information regarding this process). I'm confident the old council would not have approved a proposal from Trio that stated they were going to expand the marina and do something real cool with the rest of the land with no specifics of what exactly their plans were. We've had 2 councils look at this proposal and both have thought it was a good idea.

One other thing to consider in all this is that council has stated the proceeds from these leases will be allocated to the greenspace and parks in the city. Considering that the 2 proposals out there will generate between $200,000 and $275,000 a year the city may actually have found a way to finance the purchases of some of these other properties around town that would make great additions to the park inventory. Properties the city could not afford before.
ToddT
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by ToddT »

twobits wrote:And we will never know if the apprentice wore shoes behind the bar developing his resume or under the table at council meetings.
Am thinking at least flip flops. Which ironically is a bit of a cliche when speaking of elected officials.


That is actually my favorite post ever hahaha.
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Rosemary1
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Skaha Park waterslide and mini golf

Post by Rosemary1 »

So according to mayor's own words to press (see Penticton Herald July 22 and Western News of July 22 he wont reconsider the Council vote of July 29 approving the redevelopment even though nothing has yet been signed with Trio. Mayor's reasoning seems to be that :
a) he received emails in favour of development, even though by his own admission emails opposing park were 27 to 12 just yesterday.
b) Council was voted in on a platform for change and moving Penticton forward (does this mean citizens have to accept everything council wants to do and council does not need to listen or consult on major decisions dear to the city's citizens?

Other comments that have been made are that a referendum will cost about $30,000. (Can a price be put on the loss of valuable treasured green space leased out to be destroyed at a square foot cost well under market value of prime lakefront property)

The BC Community Charter SBC 2003 allows a mayor to require reconsideration of a matter but it seems it must be done within 30 days of the original vote! . It also has very specific requirements pertaining to use of public lands and changes to such lands that do not appear to have been met by City Council.

Do look at reviews for Skaha Lake park on TripAdvisor that many visitors /travelers refer to when planning vacations. The recurring theme is appreciation of the quiet relaxed green space that families thoroughly enjoy. No one is bemoaning fact that there is no amusement park....
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fluffy
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Re: Skaha Park waterslide and mini golf

Post by fluffy »

You have those numbers backwards. It was 27 in support of the development, 12 opposed. A small sample admittedly, but with those in favour more than double those opposed, a pretty good indication of where public sentiment sits.
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twobits
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Re: Skaha Lk Rd and Yorton Development

Post by twobits »

Darkre wrote:Evey member of council in 2013 would have been fully aware of what Trio was proposing. If they weren't they would be yelling from the rooftops right now that they were duped into agreeing to this. Do you really think Vas would be silent right now if he had been blindsided by a backroom deal. If you think Vas would blindly vote on a proposal without knowing the details of that proposal I don't know why you think he would have made a good mayor. He may well have voted against this but to insinuate that there was a plot afoot to sneak this in is insulting to every member of that council including Vas. I didn't like Vassiliki but I will give him credit for being informed and vocal about the issues that were brought before council.

Council would have been presented with every expression of interest that was submitted. Staff would have ranked each proposal in presenting them to council but it was ultimately councils decision which proposals to proceed with. In this case the top proposals were shortlisted and asked to provide more detailed information regarding their submissions. I believe they met with council to discuss their plans as well due to comments made by the Trio representative (I won't argue that it is difficult to find information regarding this process). I'm confident the old council would not have approved a proposal from Trio that stated they were going to expand the marina and do something real cool with the rest of the land with no specifics of what exactly their plans were. We've had 2 councils look at this proposal and both have thought it was a good idea.

One other thing to consider in all this is that council has stated the proceeds from these leases will be allocated to the greenspace and parks in the city. Considering that the 2 proposals out there will generate between $200,000 and $275,000 a year the city may actually have found a way to finance the purchases of some of these other properties around town that would make great additions to the park inventory. Properties the city could not afford before.


Sorry Darke, but IMO you are being naive here. The previous council was voting for an improvement/investment in the Marina Property. That council was gone in Nov 2014. It took until the end of May 2015 for conceptual drawing to be made public. That is the point of history for reference. I firmly believe that the 2014 council was voting for a Marina upgrade much the same as I think most of the general public were expecting......an upgrade of the current Marina footprint. The bomb shell didn't arrive until May and the "upgrade" morphed into lands far exceeding the current Marina Lands and a friggen water slide on public green space outside of the current Marina footprint.
I would bet my right testicle that had such grand plans been known to all of the incumbents seeking re election as well as the challengers in the November civic election, it would have been the primary focus at a level equaling the prison debate and guaranteed to have changed who is now sitting at the table at City Hall. Would you disagree with that statement? If it was already known by all of sitting 2014 council, why was it not an election discussion? The decision to enter into a lease with Trio was after all made well in advance of the Nov 2014 civic election.
The simple answer is none of them knew what Trio was going to propose except a few that had chair cushions that fit their butts cuz of the time spent in them in Mayor Litke's office. The rest were waiting for Trio's proposal for the Marina property as it exists.
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