Huge RCMP Roadcheck

twobits
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by twobits »

Donald G wrote:To two bits ...

The opportunity to enjoy the wonderful standard of life we have in Canada is a matter of give and take. You seem to think that we can have the positive side of living here without having to make a contribution in the form of inconvenience at times. Roadblocks to help nab drunks, unlicensed drivers, unsafe vehicles, uninsured drivers, prohibited drivers, outstanding warrants etc etc etc is part of the down side. I wonder if or how many times such roadblocks have prevented damage, injury or death to you and yours ??

Theory vs reality.


And as I stated previously, I do not have a problem submitting to random checks per se. I just have a problem in having to be detained for an hour for that random check to be completed. That is when it becomes an affront to my rights and freedom of movement.
Just think about this for a moment. If we accept these detainment's, the big net so to speak, Why not set them up every single day because the law of probabilities will have us eventually catch every single criminal out there........maybe.
And what is the frequency that might be accepted by Joe travelling public before people have been unnecessarily delayed enough times that they start to think they live in a police state and their freedom of movement has been taken away?

Reality vs. theory Donald.
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Donald G
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by Donald G »

To twobits ...

Running roadblocks of that size is not in any way affordable on a regular basis and requires that manpower be taken away from other equally significant duties. You can not have it both ways. The good life plus being "deprived of your rights" by having the police run road checks that cause you to lose time.

IMO the loss of your one hour a few times per year is not much in comparison to the type of crimes that that roadblock THAT COSTS YOU TIME solves and makes you and rest of society just that little bit safer.
twobits
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by twobits »

Donald G wrote:To twobits ...

Running roadblocks of that size is not in any way affordable on a regular basis and requires that manpower be taken away from other equally significant duties. You can not have it both ways. The good life plus being "deprived of your rights" by having the police run road checks that cause you to lose time.

IMO the loss of your one hour a few times per year is not much in comparison to the type of crimes that that roadblock THAT COSTS YOU TIME solves and makes you and rest of society just that little bit safer.


I don't think we disagree Donald. I am willing to give up a little convenience for the greater good. That includes random road checks and the required stops at weigh scales every trip. This road check however breached the line of reasonable and only because of the pathetic planning and execution. All they had to do was a simple triage separation of traffic one km before the scales and divert them to one lane or the other. They had the hwy coned for that distance or more anyway. Instead they created a bottleneck right at the scales. A thirteen yr old could have planned it better.
This road check was actually reminiscent of the 80's and 90's road blocks in the exact same location were the inconvenience and tactics employed actually turned off a generation or more of tourists from visiting this area.
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rookie314
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by rookie314 »

Just so you know, the influence of the missing time isn't that much of a big deal, your not that important!
twobits
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by twobits »

rookie314 wrote:Just so you know, the influence of the missing time isn't that much of a big deal, your not that important!


So I can expect that you are important enough that you are going to cover my $300 overtime bill huh? I won't be holding my breath waiting for your funds rookie. I like your handle BTW. It suits your comments when you haven't read the whole thread.
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maryjane48
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by maryjane48 »

if it gets just one drunk driver off the road then you can wait
jamapple
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by jamapple »

I agree, but can't help but also agree that he has a valid point. A blitz of this size does require some planning, and hopefully they learn from this one to make subsequent ones more tolerable.

I still believe they are a good thing, but improvments can be made. $300 is more than I would want to lose.
Donald G
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by Donald G »

To twobits ...

I disagree with rookie314 that you and your situation are unimportant, but ....

There are positives and negatives to living in a safe society. Whining about the "personal cost to you" ignores the fact that all employee wages and benefits are deducted from your income tax. The taxpayers actually compensate you for your employees overtime. As a business owner you have to have know that.

It also fails to weigh the advantage of getting any number of unsafe vehicles and drivers, and criminals that offer a risk to society, off of the road and/or out of society.

If you are going to complain about such roadblocks, please stick to the truth.
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Madhue
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by Madhue »

Donald G wrote:Sounds like the police trusted you and you let everyone down who counts on other drivers to do what is required to make our roads as safe as possible. Given that the police do not have resources to check EVERY vehicle, it was your failing, not theirs.

Rather apologetic perspective, again I have acknowledged the fact driving is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT, I've also stated that ICBC rather than RCMP have the capacity check every vehicle if that was the Primary Rationale. However, this was not about driving or driving offences as you and others have pointed out it was about Policing. Specifically Police, in this situation are walking into a Grey Area of infringing on my Rights to "Security of Person". When we drive and RCMP do Roadchecks for sobriety, I have no issue with that, everyone is stopped all asked the same questions have we been drinking, if we act like we have or state we have or give "probable cause" then questioning continues. But search of ourselves and our vehicles even our passengers don't happen unless we give reason. Giving reason to being searched is paramount in this situation.

Section 8 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure."
Now lets be honest with ourselves here.... what was the reason for people being detained, and searched? Just being in a place at a time and potentially and in essence profiled by an RCMP officer.

was this a valid traffic stop?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Harrison

was the rationale for stopping these folks scrutiny of the passengers in this cases is erroneous...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Belnavis


again I ask why as Canadians you are all so quick to give up your Rights? Why Cerebrate Canada Day if you don't embrace the freedoms your nation affords you?
"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
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twobits
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by twobits »

Donald G wrote: Whining about the "personal cost to you" ignores the fact that all employee wages and benefits are deducted from your income tax. The taxpayers actually compensate you for your employees overtime. As a business owner you have to have know that.



Donald, that is the silliest thing I have heard you say on these threads. You should seriously rethink your logic here. Of course I can write off the $300 paid out in overtime but I would rather have the $300 on my bottom line and PAY the taxes to the Receiver General on that $300 of income and leave the net in my jeans. Tax deductible expenses are provided to assist business by recognizing the legitimate costs of doing business. While I can and will write off this expense, how fair and legitimate is that expense to the taxpayer? You call it a taxpayer subsidy. I call it a taxpayer ripoff. What you are saying is that I should be happy that I can write off the $300 dollar expense cuz I won't have to pay the 28% of it that would have been paid in taxes. So in reality, I won't have to write the Receiver General a cheque for $84 dollars because of this roadblock but I should also be happy that I don't have the balance of $216 dollars in my business bank account???
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Donald G
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by Donald G »

To twobits ...

Somewhere between your expectations and my expectations is likely the middle ground that might have made the roadblock experience more acceptable to people like yourself. I think that we agree with having the roadblock for the wide number of reasons earlier identified but not how to best carry it out.

Perhaps I am a pessimist but I do not think there is any way to satisfy what IMO are the rampant demands of people like Madhue and his extreme left wing demands that should have remained in law school where theory is king and reality does not exist.

Brought out into the real world, that type of thinking has chaged what used to be a search for truth and justice in out Criminal Court Systems into a lawyer enriching exercise in theoretical law that IMO serves lawyers but not society.
jamapple
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by jamapple »

again I ask why as Canadians you are all so quick to give up your Rights? Why Cerebrate Canada Day if you don't embrace the freedoms your nation affords you?



I don't like the criminals to also be afforded the same rights as I do.....I want them caught. If it means periodically having to wait on a roadside, so be it, ( for me). So, if we just leave everyone alone, how the hell can you get the large number of lawbreakers to answer to the law?
twobits
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by twobits »

jamapple wrote:

I don't like the criminals to also be afforded the same rights as I do.....I want them caught. If it means periodically having to wait on a roadside, so be it, ( for me). So, if we just leave everyone alone, how the hell can you get the large number of lawbreakers to answer to the law?


With efficient policing. When one calculates the total cost of this roadblock, including the cost to the travelling public and commercial traffic, the cost was huge and in no way justifies what the net caught.
Now, having said that, I also have to defer to Donald's position where the laws have so stripped away the tools that our law enforcement people can use to target individuals of interest, that they are left hangin in the breeze trying to promote a presence for appearance, yet their hands are tied by procedural nonsense. What we have IMO is a dysfunctional system. When our law enforcement agencies have to use draconian methods of stop and question every citizen in the hopes of catching the .005 percent of criminals in our society, something is terribly wrong. It might be cost effective in Iraq or Yemen, but not here.
And that, IMO, is why bills like C51 are justified. If the cops can make a case for tapping my phone.....go for it. I would rather resources be devoted to intelligence than stopping the motoring public with nothing but a hope and a prayer that someone of interest might happen by.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Donald G
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by Donald G »

To jamapple ...

You are right but it will be a cold day in Hades before everyone will think that way.

The we, we, we generation has been replaced my the me, me, me generation.

The ebb and flow of social thought along with the ebb and flow of reality.
jamapple
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Re: Huge RCMP Roadcheck

Post by jamapple »

twobits, I, too, am part of the " go ahead and check/video/tap me group, because I have NOTHING to hide, but past experience on here clearly states you get sh*t on for taking that stand. People just want to be left alone with their rights. But with that, comes the part about the common criminal having the exact same rights as myself. That, I'm not good with.

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