Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby George+ » Nov 21st, 2018, 11:00 am

And..y'all be usin gas when you could be stealing heat from the air.
At very little cost.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby Pete Podoski » Nov 21st, 2018, 11:04 am

We were sucking down about $1500 - $2000 a year for gas, then a pile of electricity on a heat pump.

The $4500 furnace install with an $1100 gas bill and no electricity cost on that old pump anymore is a quick payback. Our old furnace was a pig, so was the pump. And life is much quieter, too.

The wife crunched the electricity numbers, and although I don't listen very well when she speaks, she said something about $450 a year cheaper.

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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby George+ » Nov 21st, 2018, 11:50 am

Sorry but...

There is no "pile of electricity" to using a heat pump.

Unless it is super cold, and running day and night..then a bit more.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby LANDM » Nov 21st, 2018, 2:05 pm

George+ wrote:Sorry but...

There is no "pile of electricity" to using a heat pump.

Unless it is super cold, and running day and night..then a bit more.

Wow....I am very surprised at your comments.........do you think a heat pump uses very little power?
It is no different than running your AC all the time in the summer......it is a "pile of electricity".
A "pile" being a unit of measurement, meaning a fairly large cost.

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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby dontrump » Nov 21st, 2018, 8:07 pm

LANDM wrote:
George+ wrote:Sorry but...

There is no "pile of electricity" to using a heat pump.

Unless it is super cold, and running day and night..then a bit more.

Wow....I am very surprised at your comments.........do you think a heat pump uses very little power?
It is no different than running your AC all the time in the summer......it is a "pile of electricity".
A "pile" being a unit of measurement, meaning a fairly large cost.


actually the AC side of the heat pump system uses less power than the heat side ;;both use a fair amount of power but the heat side of a heat pump is a power hog
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby dontrump » Nov 21st, 2018, 8:11 pm

Glacier wrote:
Pete Podoski wrote:For your home's resale value, too, don't saddle it with an old piece of junk heat pump. Buyers don't want those old boat anchors any more.

What a bunch of bunk. Heat pumps are great, especially when it comes to cooling your place in summer!

A new furnace saves you in 4 years? Really? I use something $700 worth of gas to heat my house. Let's say I get a new furnace that saves me $300/year. That furnace is going to cost something like $4000 to install. That's no 4 year payback.


where u buying a (eg) 80k btu 96% efficiency furnace for $4000 NEVER MIND installed????
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby dontrump » Nov 21st, 2018, 8:16 pm

I have a Geo Thermo heat/ac pump system which is way way more expensive and efficient than a heat pump system and when on AC its very efficient but on heat its a power hog

the vertical ground loop system required for a geo thermos system is $25000 on its own then add in the equipment
its a 50K system complete waste of money in my opinion

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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby Bpeep » Nov 21st, 2018, 8:28 pm

George+ wrote:Tons of good reading on the internet...many myths about heat pumps.

https://precisioncomfort.com/2016/01/04 ... d-weather/


The "advertisement " in your link is comparing a heat pump to an electric furnace.
The electric furnace will operate at 100% efficiency, an electric air source heat pump can achieve up to 300% efficiency under optimum conditions.
As much as you may tout your uninformed opinion of the frugal operation of an air source heat pump, it's cheaper to heat with gas.
A heat pump is an awesome option if you haven't a gas service.
But if you have gas heat , it's a no brainer.
Use the heat pump for summer cooling.
Heating with electricity if nat gas is servicing the dwelling is foolish.
The math is certainly easy enough to do.
Seeking the apartment that is creating leasing interest concerns knowledgeable seclusive morons excessively.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby bob vernon » Nov 21st, 2018, 8:29 pm

It is small if you have a geothermal system. It works no matter what the air temperature, drawing heat from deep in mother earth. Plus, it gives very cheap air conditioning in the summer. The issue with geothermal is the initial coast of drilling and installing pipe deep underground. But it is then very cheap to operate, just a couple of pumps and a refrigeration unit. That costly initial outlay will take years to recoup but it will definitely be recouped when you put the house up for sale.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby countmeout » Nov 22nd, 2018, 7:29 am

George+ wrote:The "advertisement " in your link is comparing a heat pump to an electric furnace.
The electric furnace will operate at 100% efficiency, an electric air source heat pump can achieve up to 300% efficiency under optimum conditions.
As much as you may tout your uninformed opinion of the frugal operation of an air source heat pump, it's cheaper to heat with gas.
A heat pump is an awesome option if you haven't a gas service.
But if you have gas heat , it's a no brainer.
Use the heat pump for summer cooling.
Heating with electricity if nat gas is servicing the dwelling is foolish.
The math is certainly easy enough to do.


No such thing as over 100% efficient. Heat pumps cannot be 300% efficient, this would break all the laws of physics.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby Bpeep » Nov 22nd, 2018, 7:36 am

I wrote that, but you quoted George.
I understand why one would respond thst way, and it can be a bit tricky to wrap your head around the efficiency of a heat pump.
It best to research it on the net, my explanation could get a bit long winded.
But, ya a heat pump can be up to 300% efficient.
In reality, I should be using the term of coefficient of performance which can reach as high as 3.

Remember, it's not electricity being converted to heat, it's electricity being used to compress a gas and air going thru coils to pick up or give up heat by changing the state of that gas from a gas to a liquid, liquid to a gas.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby dontrump » Nov 22nd, 2018, 8:19 am

bob vernon wrote:It is small if you have a geothermal system. It works no matter what the air temperature, drawing heat from deep in mother earth. Plus, it gives very cheap air conditioning in the summer. The issue with geothermal is the initial coast of drilling and installing pipe deep underground. But it is then very cheap to operate, just a couple of pumps and a refrigeration unit. That costly initial outlay will take years to recoup but it will definitely be recouped when you put the house up for sale.


READ my last post;;; do you have one in your house?? Because I do and its reasonable for AC in the summer but certainly not "cheap" and winter heating is more than gas heat Iam burning 40KWH per day for heat and its only been around zero F
on average at worst so far in vernon and thats set at 19C because Iam away ;; If I was at 23-24 It would be much worse
and I said extremely expensive to install system;; Iam totally unhappy with the system as far as costs to run it
; the advertisments verses reality on such systems is not reality

1200KWH is 4.5 Gigajouls 1200KWH costs about 144$ gas cost $48 add in furnace power of $29 a forced air gas system

cost $77 and the GT system cost $144
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby TylerM4 » Nov 23rd, 2018, 8:28 am

George+ wrote:Sorry but...

There is no "pile of electricity" to using a heat pump.

Unless it is super cold, and running day and night..then a bit more.


George. I don't know what to say. About 5 people telling you that you are wrong. Some of those 5 providing information showing WHY you are wrong. But you, you just sit there and say "Nope - you guys are all wrong and it's simply because I say so".

Do you understand what efficiency means? Your heat pump looses efficiency as the outside temps get colder. At some point as the temp drops, the efficiency gets so bad that it's cheaper to heat with NG. That's the plain and simple truth. If you want to convince us we're incorrect you're going to have to explain in a way that provides facts - not opinions as to how you believe it is.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby bob vernon » Nov 23rd, 2018, 2:30 pm

I do have a geothermal system. Not a "geothermo" system that the Trumpster calls it. Don's cost estimate of over $50,000 is way out of line. My system cost less than $20,000, including the drilling through solid rock of three vertical ground loop lines down to 170 feet. I jumped to geothermal when the Feds and province had a rebate plan for it and I saved about 20%. But that still dosn't put the cost anywhere near Don's $50,000. It heats the house all by itself down to about minus 18C and only at temperatures colder than minus 18 does the electrical backup cut in.

Adding up and averaging my hydro bill for all of 2017 gave an average monthly cost for hydro of $158.00 per month. No gas, no wood, no other heat source. And that $158 covered all the lights, clothes washer and dryer, hot water tank and the geothermal..... the lot. We put in almost all LED lighting and insulated all we could and sealed up everything. I might not recover my cost over the years I remain in the house, but the resale value of the house looks good.
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Re: Heating the home - electric vs. natural gas?

Postby dontrump » Nov 23rd, 2018, 7:13 pm

bob vernon wrote:I do have a geothermal system. Not a "geothermo" system that the Trumpster calls it. Don's cost estimate of over $50,000 is way out of line. My system cost less than $20,000, including the drilling through solid rock of three vertical ground loop lines down to 170 feet. I jumped to geothermal when the Feds and province had a rebate plan for it and I saved about 20%. But that still dosn't put the cost anywhere near Don's $50,000. It heats the house all by itself down to about minus 18C and only at temperatures colder than minus 18 does the electrical backup cut in.

Adding up and averaging my hydro bill for all of 2017 gave an average monthly cost for hydro of $158.00 per month. No gas, no wood, no other heat source. And that $158 covered all the lights, clothes washer and dryer, hot water tank and the geothermal..... the lot. We put in almost all LED lighting and insulated all we could and sealed up everything. I might not recover my cost over the years I remain in the house, but the resale value of the house looks good.


You have a small house no doubt ;;
The loop line I have is three loops at 235 ft deep per loop ;; Current cost to drill the vertical line as I have is $25000 ;The complete heat/ cool system I have for 2 floors and 3400 sq ft is around 25K depends on sq ft and air runs,# of air returns, #of rooms etc Mine is a 60000 BTU system
The same system using natural gas and regular 96% efficient furnace is around 20K todays cost when building a new house

my Hydro on a monthly average runs me (tax in ($137.00)

If a person could have a new house with a geothermo heat /cool system for 20K everyone in the world would be doing so
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