Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby canuck500 » Jul 6th, 2015, 4:17 pm

https://news.gov.bc.ca/factsheets/facts ... artin-mars

looks like my link got cut off the first time I posted it.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby trapp » Jul 6th, 2015, 5:01 pm

Oh great the most expensive inefficient dinosaur in today's air tanker fleet will save the province. This is strictly political. It will be most efficient kept on the coast for fires on the Island or mainland coastal fires.

Here is an important fact from the link in last post:

On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.

On the Okanagan Mountain fire we timed the drops from the "Ducks" compared to the Mars and did the math. The Ducks delivered more water to more targets in the same time frame as the Mars for less money.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby GordonH » Jul 6th, 2015, 5:15 pm

trapp wrote:Oh great the most expensive inefficient dinosaur in today's air tanker fleet will save the province. This is strictly political. It will be most efficient kept on the coast for fires on the Island or mainland coastal fires.

Here is an important fact from the link in last post:

On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.

On the Okanagan Mountain fire we timed the drops from the "Ducks" compared to the Mars and did the math. The Ducks delivered more water to more targets in the same time frame as the Mars for less money.


So over double litre output at 1/3 the cost.

Time to send this aircraft to the museum
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby rookie314 » Jul 6th, 2015, 7:21 pm

Wayne Coulson is laughing his arse off, all the way to the bank.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby madadam » Jul 6th, 2015, 8:22 pm

Well even though Castanet titled the news thread on this "Martin Mars Coming Back" the Gov is just talking about this and I feel its a way to quiet the 12000 or more who signed the petition.

From the global thread:

But Wayne Coulson, the owner of the two remaining Martin Mars water bombers, has a contract for one his planes to help teach Chinese pilots learn how to fly the same type of planes. He’s in negotiations to move the other one to Florida. And a similar petition effort to bring back the Mars bombers failed last year.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby zerograv » Jul 6th, 2015, 11:06 pm

Mars officially added to BCs arsenal of flying tankers.

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Queen K » Jul 6th, 2015, 11:09 pm

More to the point, what took so long?
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby zerograv » Jul 6th, 2015, 11:16 pm

Political posturing is what made it take so long. I'm happy to know our government would rather award contracts to the company with the largest political contributions rather than do whatever it takes to get this situation under control. Use every last resource no matter the cost! They "budget" way less then they spend every year so it can look like they balance the books.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 9:13 am

trapp wrote:Here is an important fact from the link in last post:

On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.

On the Okanagan Mountain fire we timed the drops from the "Ducks" compared to the Mars and did the math. The Ducks delivered more water to more targets in the same time frame as the Mars for less money.

Yet the volume of water dropped at one time is far greater with the Mars which could help extinguish a fire quicker. Think of a bucket of water vs. a bottle of water.

Nickel and diming aside - all types of aircraft used have specific roles that they excel at. The Mars may not be ideal for all fires but I'm quite sure there are some fires it would be more efficient at as opposed to smaller aircraft.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Fancy » Jul 7th, 2015, 9:24 am

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local ... -1.1991217

The Martin Mars will be put in the water at Sproat Lake at 8 a.m. today as preparations for a possible return begin, said Wayne Coulson, CEO of Port Alberni-based Coulson Group. “Most likely by Wednesday afternoon we’ll start running the motors in and we’ll start doing some test flights in the aircraft. And then the government, they can decide if they want it or not.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 9:36 am

According to information from a person who used to manage the planes that are used to fight forrest fires the Martin Mars is simply less economical "per fire suppression unit placed on a fire" and far less maneuverable in mountain terrain than other options available.

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 9:54 am

Donald G wrote:According to information from a person who used to manage the planes that are used to fight forrest fires the Martin Mars is simply less economical "per fire suppression unit placed on a fire" and far less maneuverable in mountain terrain than other options available.

There is no question that the Mars is not as versatile as other aircraft - but that doesn't mean it can't be more effective in some fires compared to other aircraft.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby MAPearce » Jul 7th, 2015, 12:05 pm

trapp wrote:Oh great the most expensive inefficient dinosaur in today's air tanker fleet will save the province. This is strictly political. It will be most efficient kept on the coast for fires on the Island or mainland coastal fires.

Here is an important fact from the link in last post:

On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.

On the Okanagan Mountain fire we timed the drops from the "Ducks" compared to the Mars and did the math. The Ducks delivered more water to more targets in the same time frame as the Mars for less money.


All those numbers don't consider that the Mars mixes the water with a gel that keeps it from turning into steam and evaporating in the heat above the fire so it actually hits the target..Nor does it take into account the benefits of such a large amount of water hitting the target at once.....

Kinda like put out a camp fire with a Dixie cup full of water compared to a 5 gallon bucket.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 12:17 pm

To Dizzy1 ...

You left out the cost of the "mother ship" delivering the goods.

Like the old single fire cannons used as anti aircraft guns during the second world war the Martin Mars;

1. Makes a great deal of noise and hits its target now and then but, given its size, is mostly a very expensive way of making people watching the fire fighting efforts feel better.

2. Is a clear example of "bigger is better" if you are willing to pay three times the price.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby pentona » Jul 7th, 2015, 12:23 pm

MAPearce wrote:
All those numbers don't consider that the Mars mixes the water with a gel that keeps it from turning into steam and evaporating in the heat above the fire so it actually hits the target..Nor does it take into account the benefits of such a large amount of water hitting the target at once.....

Kinda like put out a camp fire with a Dixie cup full of water compared to a 5 gallon bucket.


I am not certain about the air tractors, if they also use foam but the CL-415's sure do. I suspect they are stuck working in Saskatchewan. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-331305/
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