Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

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canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

The air tractors definitely use retardant, I've seen them reload in Penticton.
Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

Donald G wrote:To Dizzy1 ...

You left out the cost of the "mother ship" delivering the goods.

Like the old single fire cannons used as anti aircraft guns during the second world war the Martin Mars;

1. Makes a great deal of noise and hits its target now and then but, given its size, is mostly a very expensive way of making people watching the fire fighting efforts feel better.

2. Is a clear example of "bigger is better" if you are willing to pay three times the price.

Sometimes three times the price is better.

I understand the costs involved, but at this point in time, we need all the help we can get. Is it the best solution? Maybe not but right now it may very likely be the best solution we have available to us.
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Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

Personally, I'd love to see a fleet of these ...



... but then I am biased ;)
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pentona
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by pentona »

MAPearce wrote:
All those numbers don't consider that the Mars mixes the water with a gel that keeps it from turning into steam and evaporating in the heat above the fire so it actually hits the target..Nor does it take into account the benefits of such a large amount of water hitting the target at once.....

Kinda like put out a camp fire with a Dixie cup full of water compared to a 5 gallon bucket.


Yep, this blows your theory outta the water, MAPearce. The Air Tractors DO indeed inject foam into their water tanks. The Mars may be large but its not the only one using water/foam mixture. The Air tractors minus the floats usually use red retardant; a completely different situation (filled on land) and do not drop right ON the fire but around the perimeter to prevent spread.
canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

The ones with the floats were the ones I saw reloading with retardant at the Penticton tanker base.
pentona
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by pentona »

canuck500 wrote:The ones with the floats were the ones I saw reloading with retardant at the Penticton tanker base.


They might've been reloading foam or fuel. If you see them drop RED, then its retardant; otherwise water & foam. So far, Ive yet to see one with floats dropping red retardant. The reason for the floats (they can be removed) is to utilize lakes for quick reloads of water. Coming back to base to reload takes far longer.
canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

Dizzy 1 those would be totally impractical for BC, even more restrictions on where they can used if at all here, not many areas with wide open spaces they can manouver in, maybe 3 airports if that where they could operate from, new facilities wold have to be built at those airports to accommodate them. The tankers they have now can go into any tanker base in bc with maybe one or two exceptions and reload. If there is a fire in the Okanagan the tankers can reload in Penticton, Kamloops and Revelstoke. Revelstoke might not be able to accommodate the Electra's but everything else can go there.

A DC 10 tanker would be restricted to YVR and Kelowna most likely as I very much doubt that Kamloops, Williams Lake, Prince George has runways big enough so you wold have to built reload facilities in Kelowna & Vancouver + staff them.
Last edited by canuck500 on Jul 7th, 2015, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

pentona wrote:They might've been reloading foam or fuel. If you see them drop RED, then its retardant; otherwise water & foam. So far, Ive yet to see one with floats dropping red retardant. The reason for the floats (they can be removed) is to utilize lakes for quick reloads of water. Coming back to base to reload takes far longer.

Question. The red retardant, is that more or less a stand alone system or does/can it be mixed with water? In other words, do they use it once, reload it? Or can they scoop some water, add the retardant, drop, re-scoop and add more retardant?
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

canuck500 wrote:Dizzy 1 those wold be totally impractical for BC, even more restrictions on where they can used if at all here, not many areas with wide open spaces they can manouver in, maybe 3 airports if that where they could operate from, new facilities wold have to be built at those airports to accommodate them. The tankers they have now can go into any tanker base in bc with maybe one or two exceptions and reload. If there is a fire in the Okanagan the tankers can reload in Penticton, Kamloops and Revelstoke. Revelstoke might not be able to accommodate the Electra's but everything else can go there.

A DC 10 tanker would be restricted to YVR and Kelowna most likely as I very much doubt that Kamloops, Williams Lake, Prince George has runways big enough so you wold have to built reload facilities in Kelowna & Vancouver + staff them.

Oh, I'm very aware of that, kinda what I meant by me being biased LOL! But thanks :)
Last edited by Dizzy1 on Jul 7th, 2015, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

Retardant is stand alone but that's great thing about the air tractor they can drop a load of retardant and either go back for retardant or hit a lake for water.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

canuck500 wrote:Retardant is stand alone but that's great thing about the air tractor they can drop a load of retardant and either go back for retardant or hit a lake for water.

So in theory, the Mars could drop the same amount of retardant that would take the AT's 7 times in which a group of 4 would have to go back a reload.
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Woodenhead
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Woodenhead »

IDK, I'd rather have, say, 12 vehicles fighting fires than 11.
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Donald G
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Donald G »

The Martin Mars can only unload in a straight line. Except for grass fires on the prairies, how many fires offer a long straight line of fire ?? How much of the Mars Martin "liquid" goes onto the fire and how much is dumped on peripheral areas because the fire strip is not long enough ??
canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

The Mars can't carry a full load of water when it's full of fuel. So it's possible in some cases for 4 Air Tractors or 2 CL-415's to deliver more water to a fire in the same amount of time as the Mars but using less fuel and at a lower contract price.
Last edited by canuck500 on Jul 7th, 2015, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

Donald G wrote:The Martin Mars can only unload in a straight line.

Seems to do just fine banking and dropping ...

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