Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby canuck500 » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:36 pm

Here is a shot of the Air Tractor with floats dropping retardant http://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/14 ... rts-lifted
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:40 pm

To Dizzy1 ...

I do not kow of any plane that can not bank. Over what distance (AND HIT THE ZIG ZAG FIRE LINE) is the problem.

Not even close to the alternatives available.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:45 pm

canuck500 wrote:The Mars can't carry a full load of water when it's full of fuel. So it's possible in some cases for 4 Air Tractors or 2 CL-415's to deliver more water to a fire in the same amount of time as the Mars but using less fuel and at a lower contract price.

It is possible, as you said in some cases - my argument is that there are cases where the Mars may be more effective.

The Mars is dispatched with 3 hours of usable fuel, so in that 3 hours it can drop quite a bit.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:47 pm

Donald G wrote:To Dizzy1 ...

I do not kow of any plane that can not bank. Over what distance (AND HIT THE ZIG ZAG FIRE LINE) is the problem.

Not even close to the alternatives available.

Your claim was that the Mars can only drop in a straight line, which clearly is not the case.

Is the Mars as agile as smaller aircraft? Of course not. But not all fires in this Province require a "zig zag" drop. I'm willing to bet that most of the AT drops are in a straight line as well.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:51 pm

To Dizzy1 ...

But over a much shorter distance and therefore not nearly as likely to continue to drop on a "non fire line" segment of bush.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby canuck500 » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:55 pm

A point for those thinking that Conair is the sole source for aerial fire fighting in BC should know that Air Spray has there Electra's on contract in BC.

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby canuck500 » Jul 7th, 2015, 1:59 pm

Cruise speed of the various air tankers. All of the types listed are used in BC.
http://wildfire.alberta.ca/wildfire-ope ... nkers.aspx

Martin Mars info down at the bottom of the page under performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_JR ... -3_Mars.29

http://www.firebossllc.com/specs.php some interesting info here re turn around times for the fire boss in various scenarios


http://www.martinmars.com/aircraft.htm as quoted here average pick up time is 25 seconds.
Last edited by canuck500 on Jul 7th, 2015, 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 2:11 pm

Donald G wrote:To Dizzy1 ...

But over a much shorter distance and therefore not nearly as likely to continue to drop on a "non fire line" segment of bush.

Can you back that up? I think your confusing distance with radius. The Mars is more agile then most think.

Again, is it ideal for all scenarios? No. But I'm quite certain there are scenario's where she will be very useful.
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Swoop » Jul 7th, 2015, 2:26 pm

...I respect everyone's opinion on this matter - from both sides - but we're really splitting some rather inconsequential hairs here...as Woodenhead so eloquently put it a few posts back:

by Woodenhead » Today, 1:20 pm

IDK, I'd rather have, say, 12 vehicles fighting fires than 11.


...it's about resources...on any given day, the more nimble, modern aircraft are a more viable and efficient option for most scenarios...however, given the current state of the fire ratings around the province - it's simply all hands on deck - and the more resources that can be put on the scene at this point in time, the better...

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Dizzy1 » Jul 7th, 2015, 2:28 pm

Swoop wrote:
...it's about resources...on any given day, the more nimble, modern aircraft are a more viable and efficient option for most scenarios...however, given the current state of the fire ratings around the province - it's simply all hands on deck - and the more resources that can be put on the scene at this point in time, the better...

I couldn't agree more!
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby butcher99 » Jul 7th, 2015, 3:31 pm

Every summer.. bring back the Martin Mars.... Every year. It is a great plane to watch but it is not so great at fighting fires. Anyone who watched it here in 2003 knows that it is just too slow, takes to long to make a trip and is just not an efficient way to fight fires.
Small fast planes have proven much better than the Mars bomber.

There is a reason the people who fight the fires don't haul it out every year.

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby MAPearce » Jul 7th, 2015, 4:43 pm

Yep, this blows your theory outta the water, MAPearce. The Air Tractors DO indeed inject foam into their water tanks. The Mars may be large but its not the only one using water/foam mixture. The Air tractors minus the floats usually use red retardant; a completely different situation (filled on land) and do not drop right ON the fire but around the perimeter to prevent spread


My "theory" ???? *bleep* ? I never said anything about Air tractors.. I said that in the comparison posted earlier it didn't factor in the fact OR cost of, the Mars not just scooping up water and dumping it ,but it also adding a coagulant to the 27,000 litres of water it dropped ... It's a gel that prevents the water from evaporating from the heat above the fire before it hits it.

THAT is NOT a theory... Go back and re read.. Then "google it"
I payed attention in High school....But not to what they were trying to teach me..
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 4:54 pm

Keep in mind that many forest fires are NOT burning marketable timber and are, in the long run, actually just part of natures cycle for restocking the flora and fauna of our hinterlands.

The biggest immediate serious problem is when they get clost to habitation that we have mindlessly built "in the bush" in order to enjoy nature. Sorry folks but forest fires are a real life part of nature.

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby Donald G » Jul 7th, 2015, 4:57 pm

Interesting factual Info Canuck5000

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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Jul 7th, 2015, 8:13 pm

canuck500 wrote:The Mars can't carry a full load of water when it's full of fuel. So it's possible in some cases for 4 Air Tractors or 2 CL-415's to deliver more water to a fire in the same amount of time as the Mars but using less fuel and at a lower contract price.


Dizzy1 wrote:It is possible, as you said in some cases - my argument is that there are cases where the Mars may be more effective.

The Mars is dispatched with 3 hours of usable fuel, so in that 3 hours it can drop quite a bit.


I totally agree there are situations where the Martin Mars can be a better choice than the smaller planes.

The Mars compared to the other planes can hold so much water, that even if it drops on a hot spot, after allowing for a bunch of water turning into steam due to heat, there'll still be enough hitting the ground to douse about an acre of land.

By contrast much of the smaller planes load would turn to steam and be ineffective.

Both types of plane have their uses and just because a few here completely bought into the government's hype about the smaller planes doesn't mean it's all true.
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