Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

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canuck500
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by canuck500 »

You could say the same thing about the Martin Mars hype. Fire Retardant will last a lot longer then water.
Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

canuck500 wrote:You could say the same thing about the Martin Mars hype. Fire Retardant will last a lot longer then water.

Its not so much hype for some of us, its simply the reality that its a tool that at the moment, we desperately need.

Its available and its ready to go.
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butcher99
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by butcher99 »

LoneWolf_53 wrote:[

I totally agree there are situations where the Martin Mars can be a better choice than the smaller planes.

The Mars compared to the other planes can hold so much water, that even if it drops on a hot spot, after allowing for a bunch of water turning into steam due to heat, there'll still be enough hitting the ground to douse about an acre of land.

By contrast much of the smaller planes load would turn to steam and be ineffective.

Both types of plane have their uses and just because a few here completely bought into the government's hype about the smaller planes doesn't mean it's all true.


The thing is, are you trying to put the fire out or are you trying to contain it. This is not a bonfire in your backyard. You are not going to put it out. You contain it and it goes out by itself so to speak.

You want to ring the fire with retardant so it can not race away on you. Sure you can drop a ton of water on 4 acres of land and maybe put the fire out on a bit of that. Then you fly back, get more water and when you come back the fire has taken over again.
You get ahead of the fire. Ring it with a firebreak of retardant or bulldoze off a wide break. If you make a break wide enough and if the wind does not come up and the fire does not jump the break you just go in and clear up the hot spots as the fire burns itself out.
That is how I see it.
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Drip_Torch
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Drip_Torch »

I've got a whole bunch of screw drivers in my tool kit.

I've got the standard type, I've got the ratcheting type, I've got them on a flex handle, on a air chuck and I've got that big old screw driver that sits in the bottom of my tool box. I don't use the big one much, and truth be told its been used more as a pry bar than anything else, but when I come across one them big ole screws, my big old screwdriver does the job second to none. (it also stirs paint.)

The logistical questions around efficiencies are not answered by linear line equations looking at litres per hour. It drops suppressant, usually just water, and not long term retardant and thus it's requires a different operational approach, or it can simply be used to buy time. The time to use the Mars, high intensity flame fronts, heavy involved fuel loads, requirement for extra-ordinary canopy penetration, or when there simply isn't something else available.

It's a good old machine and sure these newer ones have some efficiencies when your looking at the typical scenarios, but Coastal is her stomping ground, and it's Coastal that's looking like it may need a stomping.

The Mars has a time and place - it simply wouldn't have stood the test of time, if it didn't.

{Disclaimer: Coulson Aircrane bought me a lot of gloves and put caulks on my boots for a few years. And, I get a little more sensitive to people assuming things are done, (just because they are old, slow and not as maneuverable) with each passing year.}
Drip Torch - an upright and steadfast keeper of the flame, but when tilted sideways the contents spill and then our destiny is in the wind...
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Woodenhead
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Woodenhead »

Swoop wrote:however, given the current state of the fire ratings around the province - it's simply all hands on deck - and the more resources that can be put on the scene at this point in time, the better...


Yep, that's all I'm saying.

This doesn't need to be a complicated decision.
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Rwede
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Rwede »

The best way to get your tanker fleet to be the preferred fire-fighting tool, IMO:


Search Results
Total Contribution For This Search: $108,550.00
Records 1 to 29 of 29
1
Contributor Name Date Amount Class Principal Officer 1 Principal Officer 2 Filer Name Filer Type Affiliation Electoral District ED Boundary Established
CONAIR GROUP INC 2008/04/30 $5,000.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2014/05/29 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2013/05/01 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2013/05/02 $2,500.00 2 BC NDP POLITICAL PARTY BC NDP
CONAIR GROUP INC 2013/04/29 $3,000.00 2 DE JONG, MICHAEL CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY ABBOTSFORD WEST 2008
CONAIR GROUP INC 2012/08/01 $5,000.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2011/09/26 $1,600.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2011/07/22 $4,000.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2011/06/22 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2011/02/01 $5,000.00 2 DE JONG, MICHAEL LEADERSHIP CONTESTANT BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2011/01/25 $800.00 2 DE JONG, MICHAEL LEADERSHIP CONTESTANT BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2009/03/25 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2009/04/30 $1,000.00 2 VAN DONGEN, JOHN CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY ABBOTSFORD SOUTH 2008
CONAIR GROUP INC 2008/04/30 $1,200.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2008/04/30 $1,300.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2008/09/04 $5,000.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2005/05/13 $1,500.00 2 VAN DONGEN, JOHN CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY ABBOTSFORD-CLAYBURN 1999
CONAIR GROUP INC 2005/05/09 $1,500.00 2 DE JONG, MICHAEL CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY ABBOTSFORD-MOUNT LEHMAN 1999
CONAIR GROUP INC 2007/01/22 $5,000.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2007/04/05 $900.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2007/04/24 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2007/09/24 $1,200.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2006/05/01 $800.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2009/04/22 $1,000.00 2 DE JONG, MICHAEL CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY ABBOTSFORD WEST 2008
CONAIR GROUP INC 2009/04/22 $1,000.00 2 CAMPBELL, GORDON CANDIDATE BC LIBERAL PARTY VANCOUVER-POINT GREY 2008
CONAIR GROUP INC 2005/03/01 $250.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2005/04/15 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2005/12/31 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
CONAIR GROUP INC 2010/03/04 $7,500.00 2 BARRY MARSDEN BC LIBERAL PARTY POLITICAL PARTY BC LIBERAL PARTY
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Donald G
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Donald G »

To Rwede ...

Interesting post that again identifies one of the weaknesses in our Canadian political system. I wonder, over the last ten years identified in your article, how many political donations went to other candidates in other parties as a way of "covering all of the bases" ??

Given the very limited options available and the comparative costs involved I would not say the using Conair for all of these years was a strictly a political decision. Support for free enterprise would appear not only possible but probable.

Especially since Conair was bought out and changed ownership and top management just a few years back and operates outside of the province as much as in the province.
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inlandboarder
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by inlandboarder »

It's time to put this concept to rest.

The Martin Mars had its day. It's a pile of unsafe junk and is not cost effective at all. Never mind the quantity of water it can hold, but the maintenance cost alone is something that you would all be astonished by. As all of you are taxpayers, are you willing to fork it over for this costly junk pile to drop a few thousand gallons of water on a postage stamp? I think not. Its only eye candy in the sky to the arm chair quarterbacks who can now sleep at night, cause the Mars will save us all.

Aircraft, fixed wing or rotary DO NOT put fires out. They SUPPORT the hard work of ground crews and heavy equipment and their operators. Also, mother nature can start fires but she also finishes them.

Please folks, get educated here: http://fireaviation.com/
And justice for all..............
zerograv
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by zerograv »

inlandboarder wrote:It's time to put this concept to rest.

The Martin Mars had its day. It's a pile of unsafe junk and is not cost effective at all. Never mind the quantity of water it can hold, but the maintenance cost alone is something that you would all be astonished by. As all of you are taxpayers, are you willing to fork it over for this costly junk pile to drop a few thousand gallons of water on a postage stamp? I think not. Its only eye candy in the sky to the arm chair quarterbacks who can now sleep at night, cause the Mars will save us all.

Aircraft, fixed wing or rotary DO NOT put fires out. They SUPPORT the hard work of ground crews and heavy equipment and their operators. Also, mother nature can start fires but she also finishes them.

Please folks, get educated here: http://fireaviation.com/


Sounds like the ground crews could use all the SUPPORT they can get. Besides the equipment in the plane has been upgrade so it is state of the art, the only thing "old" is the airframe which obviously passes Transport Canada inspections so there is nothing unsafe about it.
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Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

inlandboarder wrote:It's a pile of unsafe junk

Please do enlighten us.
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Drip_Torch
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Drip_Torch »

Please folks, get educated here: http://fireaviation.com/


I've followed Bill Gabbert's publications for years, and I've never seen anything to support your position on any of his websites. I sure don't see anything on the front page of fire aviation today and having spent 1000's of hours, in and under machines maintained by Coulson, I wouldn't hesitate to get in any of them, anywhere, under any conditions.

http://fireaviation.com/?s=mars - Bill's one of the best, so why isn't he publishing the factual basis for your claim that it's an unsafe pile of junk?

That's okay, I know why.
Drip Torch - an upright and steadfast keeper of the flame, but when tilted sideways the contents spill and then our destiny is in the wind...
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inlandboarder
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by inlandboarder »

Yawn...........All I am saying is there are many more 21st century cost effective aircraft that can do the same job. OK, the junk observation is my own, and I'm sticking to it. The Mars was a great idea at the time. Do we really need to put that thing in the air, oh yes, for PR we do. BTW, I've been in the biz since 92. The Mars was the furthest aircraft on my mind when the idea was thrown out there. See ya.
And justice for all..............
Dizzy1
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Dizzy1 »

inlandboarder wrote:Do we really need to put that thing in the air,

Yes, we do. Forests are on fire, the Mars is ready and available and it drops water. Fortunately, personal opinion if a "piece of junk" from the 20th Century isn't put into the equation when one needs a job done yesterday.
inlandboarder wrote:BTW, I've been in the biz since 92. The Mars was the furthest aircraft on my mind when the idea was thrown out there. See ya.

Are there better aircraft out there? Absolutely. Are there more effective aircraft out there? Absolutely. Are there cheaper aircraft to operate out there? Absolutely. Are they available and ready to go? Probably not.

We're not the only ones battling forest fires right now - resources are limited. Acquiring a fleet of aircraft, pilots and support team involves a bit more than calling for a cab.

Arguments against the Mars would have more validity if we were planning for next years season, but given the state of our current forests - we don't have the time.
Nobody wants to hear your opinion. They just want to hear their own opinion coming out of your mouth.
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Drip_Torch
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by Drip_Torch »

(Hmm, the wildland fire aviation law enforcement business - who knew?)
Drip Torch - an upright and steadfast keeper of the flame, but when tilted sideways the contents spill and then our destiny is in the wind...
rookie314
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Re: Province in discussions with owners of Martin Mars

Post by rookie314 »

Another example of a fiscally inept government trying to make itself look good in the eyes of an ignorant public. There is a reason why we don't use steam locomotives anymore.

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