Bike lane for Penticton

[southy]

So I heard from a cycling friend of mine in Kelowna that there is a group formed that is going to approach mayor and council in Kelowna to see if the city will buy in and what funding options might be available for a newly designed separated bike lane from Lakeshore North on Springfield to Rutland. From what he has stated there appears to be a real power struggle amongst some of the more vocal cyclists out there and this group has heard enough. Will be interesting to see how this moves forward.

[spooker]

You are missing the point of why the majority of cycling enthusiasts are opposed to the curbs on South Main Street. Many of the spanders ride side by side (I know...its not legal but these are experienced riders who know what they are doing). Even if they are riding single file, they don't like to slow down (they are in training). If they are unable to go around slower riders (as is the case now; they can just go AROUND slower riders), people WILL hit the curbs and there will be injuries; little doubt. What is in place now works fine for everyone and also does not hurt the business in question. Its ridiculous to think that the people who shop at that store are now going to change; leave their cars at home and ride down and load up their bikes with groceries. You put curbs in the mix and god help the other slower, inexperienced riders who may want to use them. This is especially true on streets like Government and South Main; these ARE the main routes that the spandexers use, a LOT. Its also the reason that they don't use the downtown curbed off ones.

Note: Vancouver City Council just voted DOWN separated bike lanes on Broadway; good for them. (staff even reccommended against them) and the Parks Board is pulling out the separated ones in Stanley Park as well. Sure glad that SOME cities have brains in place in the right places.

But arguing that the people riding bikes on the current infrastructure are just fine continues to ignore the fact that separated cycling infrastructure will enable new people to ride their bike ...

And experienced riders who are out there for training will usually adjust their route to accomplish what they are trying to do, distance, speed, heart rate ... I don't know many people on bikes who explode with anger at the little things, that seems to usually be associated with people in cars ...

Yes, I expected that result with the Vancouver council vote ... while the argument was that 10th and 7th are designated bike routes and only one block off Broadway they mix cars and bikes (except for some sections like around VGH) which again is fine for people who are out there already there but doesn't provide safer infrastructure that would encourage new riders ...

[XT225]

But arguing that the people riding bikes on the current infrastructure are just fine continues to ignore the fact that separated cycling infrastructure will enable new people to ride their bike ...

And experienced riders who are out there for training will usually adjust their route to accomplish what they are trying to do, distance, speed, heart rate ... I don't know many people on bikes who explode with anger at the little things, that seems to usually be associated with people in cars ...

Separated ones that the experienced riders NOW prefer left alone will only increase the chance of accidents, as there will be no room to move around groups of lesser experienced/new riders. It may very well scare the heck out of new riders and defeat the purpose of the lanes altogether. The enthusiasts are NOT going to change their route; you obviously don't know local Penticton riders; being from Kelowna, we wouldn't expect you to. Curbs and signs galore will simply increase the dangers to everyone.
Being a slower/leisurely rider myself, I know these routes and I know how fast the people in training like to travel and cramming them into a tighter spot with everyone else is simply not going to work. Imagine the dollars that could be saved without curbs/signs; even the roundabout could be eliminated with a traffic light or two.

[rustled]

I agree XT225, although I do see the roundabout as necessary and preferable to traffic lights.

Referring to Penticton's lake-to-lake project as "separated cycling infrastructure" (as though it's genuinely removed from immediate proximity to busy traffic) and that "will enable new people to ride their bike" shows the utter lack of logic and critical thought behind Penticton's lake-to-lake project.

What Penticton has already spent our $ on is NOT "safer infrastructure that would encourage new riders".

If encouraging new riders was the objective (a dubious claim, IMO), the money would have been FAR better spent showing new riders the routes that are less busy and more pleasant to ride, making minor improvements to those routes. Instead, the council went for a high-visibility project that puts riders directly alongside some of our heaviest traffic, where it is unpleasant to ride and new riders are less likely to feel safe.

We've yet to see what they will propose for the South Main segment - whether it will be curbed and segregated to one side, or curbed on both sides, or curbed only in a few key sections (as with the segment of curbing added to Government's curved section at Carmi).

If "encouraging new riders" is, in fact, the objective of making any substantial changes to South Main, council is only throwing good money after bad by ignoring what local riders have been telling them: South Main is fine as-is. It's broad, with clear lines of sight.

New riders, the bulk of whom sensibly prefer to learn and hone riding skills away from busier traffic, are unlikely to be enticed to take up riding through the installation of curbing and signage on South Main. Just as we haven't yet seen new riders honing their riding skills on the completed portions of the project.

It's bad faith, ideological hubris, or just plain ignorant to suggest "encouraging new riders" is still the objective (if it ever was), given the reality of this vanity project.

[spooker]

I agree XT225, although I do see the roundabout as necessary and preferable to traffic lights.

Referring to Penticton's lake-to-lake project as "separated cycling infrastructure" (as though it's genuinely removed from immediate proximity to busy traffic) and that "will enable new people to ride their bike" shows the utter lack of logic and critical thought behind Penticton's lake-to-lake project.

What Penticton has already spent our $ on is NOT "safer infrastructure that would encourage new riders".

If encouraging new riders was the objective (a dubious claim, IMO), the money would have been FAR better spent showing new riders the routes that are less busy and more pleasant to ride, making minor improvements to those routes. Instead, the council went for a high-visibility project that puts riders directly alongside some of our heaviest traffic, where it is unpleasant to ride and new riders are less likely to feel safe.

We've yet to see what they will propose for the South Main segment - whether it will be curbed and segregated to one side, or curbed on both sides, or curbed only in a few key sections (as with the segment of curbing added to Government's curved section at Carmi).

If "encouraging new riders" is, in fact, the objective of making any substantial changes to South Main, council is only throwing good money after bad by ignoring what local riders have been telling them: South Main is fine as-is. It's broad, with clear lines of sight.

New riders, the bulk of whom sensibly prefer to learn and hone riding skills away from busier traffic, are unlikely to be enticed to take up riding through the installation of curbing and signage on South Main. Just as we haven't yet seen new riders honing their riding skills on the completed portions of the project.

It's bad faith, ideological hubris, or just plain ignorant to suggest "encouraging new riders" is still the objective (if it ever was), given the reality of this vanity project.

When saying "new riders" it seems that is being taken literally as being people who are new to riding in general ... but the term actually means people that would use their bikes for transportation, they aren't people wobbling around or uncertain of their skills, they just don't want to ride where anyone behind the wheel can distractedly take them out

People want to be able to safely get to their destination, and along the centre of town where the business areas have developed is the endpoint most people have, as evidenced by the amount of car traffic travelling there ... so it makes most sense to convert those trips that can be into cycling by creating a safe corridor for people on bikes to use

You can have straight and flat roads and yet still see cars drift into the bike lane, people seem to get bored quickly when driving along these types of stretches and start playing with the radio, checking their messages ...

One advantage to riding a bike is that one must stay engaged in the act of riding, set yourself up for distraction and you get road rash like I did yesterday when riding a trail and forgot to wear my croakies so my glasses bounced loose and when I tried to push them back on while leaning into a turn I wiped myself out ...

[spooker]

Separated ones that the experienced riders NOW prefer left alone will only increase the chance of accidents, as there will be no room to move around groups of lesser experienced/new riders. It may very well scare the heck out of new riders and defeat the purpose of the lanes altogether. The enthusiasts are NOT going to change their route; you obviously don't know local Penticton riders; being from Kelowna, we wouldn't expect you to. Curbs and signs galore will simply increase the dangers to everyone.
Being a slower/leisurely rider myself, I know these routes and I know how fast the people in training like to travel and cramming them into a tighter spot with everyone else is simply not going to work. Imagine the dollars that could be saved without curbs/signs; even the roundabout could be eliminated with a traffic light or two.

What are the separated cycle tracks that the experienced riders prefer now? I thought this whole conversation was about building separated infrastructure since none exists in town ...

People, in cars and on bikes, mostly don't seem to have an issue avoiding curbs and signs ... though not everyone is successful

[rustled]

It's not at all surprising to see how the goalposts keep getting moved to avoid reality!

Penticton's lake-to-lake project is not enticing to riders.

It's still being dressed up and promoted as "separated infrastructure" when in reality, cyclists using these new lanes would be riding immediately alongside some of our busiest traffic, where they are restrictively confined to a narrow path between curbs and signage.

The planners chose "highly visible to the motoring public" at the expense of "comfortable and pleasant to ride" - and now we live with the consequences.

Putting lipstick on this pig by pretending these constricting lanes are separated in a way that will somehow make riders comfortable riding in constricted lanes alongside busy traffic cannot change reality.

[rustled]

Separated ones that the experienced riders NOW prefer left alone will only increase the chance of accidents, as there will be no room to move around groups of lesser experienced/new riders. It may very well scare the heck out of new riders and defeat the purpose of the lanes altogether. The enthusiasts are NOT going to change their route; you obviously don't know local Penticton riders; being from Kelowna, we wouldn't expect you to. Curbs and signs galore will simply increase the dangers to everyone.
Being a slower/leisurely rider myself, I know these routes and I know how fast the people in training like to travel and cramming them into a tighter spot with everyone else is simply not going to work. Imagine the dollars that could be saved without curbs/signs; even the roundabout could be eliminated with a traffic light or two.

What are the separated cycle tracks that the experienced riders prefer now? I thought this whole conversation was about building separated infrastructure since none exists in town ...

People, in cars and on bikes, mostly don't seem to have an issue avoiding curbs and signs ... though not everyone is successful

Which is why it feels unsafe to ride alongside busy traffic, between curbs - especially when we have so many other options - including far better-separated infrastructure - to choose from.

[spooker]

It's not at all surprising to see how the goalposts keep getting moved to avoid reality!

Penticton's lake-to-lake project is not enticing to riders.

It's still being dressed up and promoted as "separated infrastructure" when in reality, cyclists using these new lanes would be riding immediately alongside some of our busiest traffic, where they are restrictively confined to a narrow path between curbs and signage.

The planners chose "highly visible to the motoring public" at the expense of "comfortable and pleasant to ride" - and now we live with the consequences.

Putting lipstick on this pig by pretending these constricting lanes are separated in a way that will somehow make riders comfortable riding in constricted lanes alongside busy traffic cannot change reality.

Not sure how the goalposts have been moved, the purpose has always been the same, I just realized (should've sooner) that I was being misunderstood, whether purposely or not and I wanted to clarify ...

Concrete curbing as is being described for the S. Main section is certainly separated, it would take serious effort to jump that ... and yes, the busiest traffic shows where people want to go, so it's time to give them more options of how to get there ...

One of the things taught in cycling safety courses is that safety is in one's visibility, putting people out of sight until the intersection would not help safety ...

And considering how much room we have when riding on the side of a road with no infrastructure, "constricted" is not a term most people would use to describe separated cycling infrastructure ...

[rustled]

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes feel constricted and much too close to busy traffic.

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes are NOT what any sensible person would have expected to see money spent on under the guise of "separated cycling infrastructure" - particularly given the ease with which Penticton's cyclists can separate ourselves from busy traffic by using existing routes other than the showy, expensive, unappealing "new" lake-to-lake route.

No amount of deflection to theory will change this reality.

Promoting the continuation of this nonsense on the South Main segment - particularly after showing us how easily a vehicle can mount a curb - is the height of ideological hubris.

[spooker]

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes feel constricted and much too close to busy traffic.

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes are NOT what any sensible person would have expected to see money spent on under the guise of "separated cycling infrastructure" - particularly given the ease with which Penticton's cyclists can separate ourselves from busy traffic by using existing routes other than the showy, expensive, unappealing "new" lake-to-lake route.

No amount of deflection to theory will change this reality.

Promoting the continuation of this nonsense on the South Main segment - particularly after showing us how easily a vehicle can mount a curb - is the height of ideological hubris.

From a picture of a stopped vehicle the speed at which they drove was able to be determined? That's pretty impressive ...

Isn't it hubris to pronounce to speak for all "sensible" people?

One of the facets of promoting an offset route for people on bikes is that it requires them to plan their route with more detail than is required for someone who can travel along the corridor of destinations ... for example, now that bike lanes will not be included on the Broadway corridor in Vancouver they can expect more people to bike on the sidewalks, trying to find the right store if they don't know exactly what cross street is closest to where they want to go ... wouldn't it be nice if people on bikes could be in their lane while searching for a particular store instead of on the sidewalk or in the general purpose lane with cars?

[rustled]

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes feel constricted and much too close to busy traffic.

In reality, Penticton's new lake-to-lake bike lanes are NOT what any sensible person would have expected to see money spent on under the guise of "separated cycling infrastructure" - particularly given the ease with which Penticton's cyclists can separate ourselves from busy traffic by using existing routes other than the showy, expensive, unappealing "new" lake-to-lake route.

No amount of deflection to theory will change this reality.

Promoting the continuation of this nonsense on the South Main segment - particularly after showing us how easily a vehicle can mount a curb - is the height of ideological hubris.

From a picture of a stopped vehicle the speed at which they drove was able to be determined? That's pretty impressive ...

What's "impressive" is the dedication to promoting the utterly nonsensical pretense Penticton's cyclists "should" feel safer cycling alongside busy traffic because of a curb than we do when cycling on the existing alternative routes preferred by most Penticton cyclists.

[BC Landlord]

What's "impressive" is the dedication to promoting the utterly nonsensical pretense Penticton's cyclists "should" feel safer cycling alongside busy traffic because of a curb than we do when cycling on the existing alternative routes preferred by most Penticton cyclists.

Rustled, you just can't argue with ideologues. It's futile. No common sense could possibly be passed across to them, no matter how hard you try, as evident in over 160 pages of "discussions" here. I have two (update: it's 3 now) of them booked on my ignore list, just because of that persistent ideological drivel.

I hope, Penticton's bike lanes will be judged by some future municipal governments (actually the electorate) with some more common sense. Fortunately, it shouldn't be that hard to physically remove them when the right time comes.

[spooker]

Great news!

Just weeks after city council reaffirmed its commitment to Penticton’s lake-to-lake bike route, elected officials have approved an unexpected $5.5-million expenditure to add an elevated downtown section.

The new route along Main Street, which would be raised by concrete pillars about three metres above existing sidewalks, would stretch approximately one kilometre from the area of Penticton Secondary School south to city hall.

https://www.pentictonherald.ca/news/art ... 7f2c5.html

[Whiskey-Jack]

I'm tired of the self-righteous, white bourgeois liberals such as Julius Bloomfield and his ilk who think what's wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths.