Airtanker Help?

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Graham Adder
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by Graham Adder »

gman313 wrote:see I was thinking we just need to pull the plug. Somewhere down there has got to be a little tiny bath plug.....then it's china's problem


:135: dayum
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rookie314
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by rookie314 »

What if we all flushed at once?
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OldIslander
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by OldIslander »

This one was fun. (Please feel free to check/critique my math). Sorry for mixing imperial & metric -- I'm an old guy... :200:

Okanagan lake's surface is approx. 135.5 sq. miles. That's (135.5 X 27,878,400) sq. feet.

The upper 1" of the lake contains (( 135.5 X 27,878,400) x 144) cu. in. which divided by 61, gives the number of litres = 8,917,431,816 -- almost 9 billion.

So lets hire a fleet of Martin Mars water bombers. Each has a capacity of 27,200 litres which it skims from the surface without landing. Let's assume each can make 50 lake skims per day (which is pretty much impossible, but for the sake of arguement....). And we want the lake level reduced by one inch in one week.

At 50 skimmed loads per day, 1 Martin Mars will remove 1,360,000 litres of water per day.

To figure out how many Martin Mars we need to do this:

(8,917,431,816 / 1,360,000) / 7 days = 936

We'll assume none of the dumped water runs back into the lake and that we can shut off all the rivers and creeks draining into the lake, while the skimming is occurring. (We'll also ignore evaporation which 'helps' this operation).

So we'd need a fleet of 936 Martin Mars water bombers, each making 50 skimming loads per day for 7 days to lower the lake level by 1 inch.
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by gman313 »

OldIslander wrote:This one was fun. (Please feel free to check/critique my math). Sorry for mixing imperial & metric -- I'm an old guy... :200:

Okanagan lake's surface is approx. 135.5 sq. miles. That's (135.5 X 27,878,400) sq. feet.

The upper 1" of the lake contains (( 135.5 X 27,878,400) x 144) cu. in. which divided by 61, gives the number of litres = 8,917,431,816 -- almost 9 billion.

So lets hire a fleet of Martin Mars water bombers. Each has a capacity of 27,200 litres which it skims from the surface without landing. Let's assume each can make 50 lake skims per day (which is pretty much impossible, but for the sake of arguement....). And we want the lake level reduced by one inch in one week.

At 50 skimmed loads per day, 1 Martin Mars will remove 1,360,000 litres of water per day.

To figure out how many Martin Mars we need to do this:

(8,917,431,816 / 1,360,000) / 7 days = 936

We'll assume none of the dumped water runs back into the lake and that we can shut off all the rivers and creeks draining into the lake, while the skimming is occurring. (We'll also ignore evaporation which 'helps' this operation).

So we'd need a fleet of 936 Martin Mars water bombers, each making 50 skimming loads per day for 7 days to lower the lake level by 1 inch.


we already did the math with dc10 tankers - but ya - lot of planes making a lot of runs whether you use the dc10 or the martin mars - but the 10 still flies!
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by rookie314 »

Except the DC10 can't pick out of the lake.
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by XT225 »

gman313 wrote:
we already did the math with dc10 tankers - but ya - lot of planes making a lot of runs whether you use the dc10 or the martin mars - but the 10 still flies!


This thread is getting kind of silly. A DC-10 cannot scoop off a lake; its a retardent (land based) bomber only. There is also only one Martin Mars still flying and in-service today.
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by gman313 »

it was meant to be silly

they can drop water or retardant but yes - filled from the ground and not scooped from the lake

they are not the most agile machines for fire fighting.

Take a look at the Convairs KF / Conair did - those are well built and agile aircraft - but only hold retardant.
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kgcayenne
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by kgcayenne »

XT225 wrote: only one Martin Mars still flying and in-service today.


OldIslander wrote:So we'd need a fleet of 936 Martin Mars water bombers, each making 50 skimming loads per day for 7 days to lower the lake level by 1 inch.


DAMNIT! We're 935 Mars bombers short.

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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by XT225 »

gman313 wrote:it was meant to be silly

they can drop water or retardant but yes - filled from the ground and not scooped from the lake

they are not the most agile machines for fire fighting.

Take a look at the Convairs KF / Conair did - those are well built and agile aircraft - but only hold retardant.


Understood. Re sillyness, the Convairs, DC-10's, etc COULD drop huge loads of Kitty Litter into the lake; it would soak up lots of moisture! Might plug up the dams, though.
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OldIslander
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by OldIslander »

I assumed the OP was being silly on purpose...

Further with the DC-10, to make your 50 dumps per day, that's one every half hour. The water would have to be pumped into it from the lake -- that's 45,000 litres in approx. 5 minutes, to give it time to take off, fly to the dump zone, dump, fly back, and land.

It would make more sense to set up the pump near the SS Sicamous, and pump the lake water over the dam, into the okanagan river channel (ignoring the problems this might cause in Skaha...). This would also eliminate the approx. $22,000 (US) per hour operational cost of the DC-10 water tankers.

BTW, there are no operational Martin Mars anymore. Coulson Air Tankers doesn't have contracts for them, so is not flying them any more. They might be maintained to the point that they can be flown to their final destinations, when they are sold or donated.
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by XT225 »

OldIslander wrote:I assumed the OP was being silly on purpose...

It would make more sense to set up the pump near the SS Sicamous, and pump the lake water over the dam, into the okanagan river channel (ignoring the problems this might cause in Skaha...). This would also eliminate the approx. $22,000 (US) per hour operational cost of the DC-10 water tankers.


Why would you set up pumps near the SS Sicamous to pump over the dam? You obviously have not seen the dam lately; its not fully open; far from it. Nor is the one in Ok Falls (though that one WAS open fully for a while). Folks South of Penticton are the ones getting the break this year (as compared to Vernon, Kelowna, Summerland, Naramata, Penticton, etc).
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OldIslander
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by OldIslander »

XT225 wrote:Why would you set up pumps near the SS Sicamous to pump over the dam? You obviously have not seen the dam lately; its not fully open; far from it. Nor is the one in Ok Falls (though that one WAS open fully for a while). Folks South of Penticton are the ones getting the break this year (as compared to Vernon, Kelowna, Summerland, Naramata, Penticton, etc).

Well this was just a hypothetical exercise of lowering the lake -- pumping the water directly out and over the dam, vs pumping it into aircraft (at $22,000 US per hour....) and flying it away.

I'm surprised to hear that they are not releasing lots of water through the dam, behind the SS Sicamous -- doesn't make sense, if properties along the lake are flooding. What's the rational behind that?
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by XT225 »

OldIslander wrote:
I'm surprised to hear that they are not releasing lots of water through the dam, behind the SS Sicamous -- doesn't make sense, if properties along the lake are flooding. What's the rational behind that?


Ask the experts; no idea. Perhaps the Water treaty with the Americans has something to do with how much water the Province can release into the system; who knows. What is clear now is IF the dam had been opened wider during the Winter, nobody would likely be in this mess right now. Of course nobody also had a crystal ball and foresaw the Spring storms or late melting snowpack either. I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for controlling things.
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Queen K
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by Queen K »

Maybe I should fill up all the water vessels around here afterall. :135:
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Re: Airtanker Help?

Post by LTD »

XT225 wrote:
OldIslander wrote:
I'm surprised to hear that they are not releasing lots of water through the dam, behind the SS Sicamous -- doesn't make sense, if properties along the lake are flooding. What's the rational behind that?


Ask the experts; no idea. Perhaps the Water treaty with the Americans has something to do with how much water the Province can release into the system; who knows. What is clear now is IF the dam had been opened wider during the Winter, nobody would likely be in this mess right now. Of course nobody also had a crystal ball and foresaw the Spring storms or late melting snowpack either. I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for controlling things.

snowpack is melting the same as any other year nothing late about it

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