Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

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60-YEARS-in-Ktown
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by 60-YEARS-in-Ktown »

To Richard and Marnie, you want for them to build a second channel in case they need it between now and 2075?
Or maybe just make the existing a little bigger..yeah that would be easy..
And then What ? Store the water where, so they dont flood everything downstream.

And regarding the gatekeeper.. Say one of you was/is teacher... And you see changes in the world coming, do you just change what you teach, to he more relevant and current ? Or do you have to stick to the guidelines of your job, because its not solely your decision ?

So even if the gatekeeper thinks maybe he should open up the gate more, it does not mean he is free to do so.

We had a very unusual seldom seen weather event, it has caused a lit of damage... Maybe blame nature, not blame it all on one individual..
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swamp1967
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by swamp1967 »

One aspect that has been overlooked by everyone on all of these threads and the media, is the role groundwater played in this whole event. Since spring made its weak start this year, the ground was already oozing with large quantities of water in part of the lower valley that I haven't seen in a very long time. Parts of our farm that are normally dry, were seeing large amounts of water coming out of the ground, well before snowmelt had really started. Remember, we had a wet fall and all that water would have been stored up in the ground.

Engineers at the Ministry of Forests haven't even mentioned this factor in defending their decisions and I think that says a lot in itself. Do they even monitor this data?
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Glacier
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by Glacier »

swamp1967 wrote:One aspect that has been overlooked by everyone on all of these threads and the media, is the role groundwater played in this whole event. Since spring made its weak start this year, the ground was already oozing with large quantities of water in part of the lower valley that I haven't seen in a very long time. Parts of our farm that are normally dry, were seeing large amounts of water coming out of the ground, well before snowmelt had really started. Remember, we had a wet fall and all that water would have been stored up in the ground.

Engineers at the Ministry of Forests haven't even mentioned this factor in defending their decisions and I think that says a lot in itself. Do they even monitor this data?

This is the first good criticism in this thread. I'm not an expert, so I don't know if they do or not, but I suspect that you could be onto something. Maybe they need to add in fall precipitation into the models.

Even if they did account for the wet Fall, they would have still missed the mark because this has been by FAR the wettest Spring on record in the Okanagan. Vernon, Kelowna, Penticton, Summerland, etc. blew the previous record out of the water. As soon as you leave the Okanagan watershed, say in Kamloops or Castlegar, this Spring was not record setting.

Here's the data for Summerland.
summerland2.jpg
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old boy
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by old boy »

According to the TV news last nite there is more than one idiot,the local one in charge was taking a directive from DFO in Ottawa,not to lower the lake to fast,for fear of interfering with the spawning sockeye and this went on until until the third week of Apr,when the local guy says that the lake has to be lowered no matter the fish.To late,but the few fish were saved and millions of dollars worth of damage has been caused all up and down the lake.Priorities these days!!!!???
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by totoramona »

nepal wrote:As well as looking at the ability drain water from the lake, the source of rapid water inflow needs to investigated. These satellite photos show the extensive clear-cut quilt on the Okanagan watershed. Take a drive up onto the surrounding mountains and look down some of the back roads and you can see the deforestratrtion is substantial. Forest water retention is possibly an issue here. Forest water retention gives slow water release, so we have water available further into the year. With deforest ration, we'll get the flash flood now, then a lack of water inflow the rest of the year.


You are bang on, nepal. Deforestation has a big impact on the rate of flow from snow melt and rain falling in the mountains. Of note is that the Ministry of Forests, Land and Resources is in charge of both the logging regulations AND the lake levels. Forests are being logged right to the waters edge in many cases, not even a row of trees in between. Why? It's no wonder that many of the logs floating in Okanagan lake have sawn ends.
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by totoramona »

LTD wrote:we get it youre against logging but that's not the issue here there were clear cuts in those areas long before this year this is a result of not paying attention to the conditions at upper elevations all someone had to do was borrow or rent a snowmobile in april and their eyes woulda been opened


Logging IS part of the issue. They are continuing to clear cut more and more each year. Even if many of the clear cuts were there before, the effect of the unusually high rainfall we had this spring was exacerbated by the clear cuts. Also, with less tree cover, unusually high snowpacks will melt and flow more rapidly. The effects of deforestation can not be overstated.
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kgcayenne
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by kgcayenne »

Well into April and more than once in May it was cold and damn, damn wet. What he hell do some of you think was happening to the freakin' snowpack? By then, it is possible that it was just too late to compensate.
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LTD
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by LTD »

the snowpack hasn't done anything different this year than any other year yes there is more snow but its melting at the usual rate I also believe their numbers regarding how much snow was up top are a bit exaggerated
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by bstacy37 »

The engineer who regulates the Penticton Okanagan outflow is making way too many excuses about every condition other than 'him'. People give him the leeway, because its 'mother nature', but that's absolute bull. If you hiked into the mountain and got attacked by some wild animal, then yes, it's mother nature at its worst. But if you create enclosures, and keep these dangerous animals inside - yes, like a zoo, then those dangerous animals are controlled. If any animal gets out of their enclosure, and mauls someone, then you have all rights to lynch the zookeeper.
In the 30's and 40's, flooding exasperated the population, so they created and built control systems that would regulate the lake flow and therefore no more dangerous 'Mother Nature', because we 'control' the flow ourselves ( and since the creation of the dam, we have had high levels, but were always controlled). Every spring, those in control of the flow have to watch the levels closely, we always have spring run-off. This year the mountain's snow pack, on average, was 79% ( below average over all ), and snow packs are the variable, because they melt at different speeds every year. The rainfall, starting in March, is easy to regulate because it's has a pretty instant effect on the lake levels, and we had quite a bit. If he was maintaining the level accordingly, he could measure each rain fall and adjust the dam's height per deim. He hesitated though, and as I heard from the engineer himself, in an interview, that he had reports that the region in the near future was going to experience drought-like conditions. That was his mistake, believing in future weather projections ( because they're never wrong ) and thinking he was being wise letting the levels rise up. I would like to know when it dawned on him that drought storage was a fatally stupid idea and / or was he pressured to hold the waters at a high level because these climate scientists are God's own prophets? None-the-less, this is a man-made disaster, being that we have complete control of the flow, mother nature was just being herself. I wish he and others would stop belittling this situation - the damage is going to be long lasting and expensive for some, especially in our tourism industry.
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kgcayenne
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by kgcayenne »

Unless you had been up there monitoring and analyzing the data, let's face it: you don't know anything more than the rest of us.
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LTD
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by LTD »

sorry kg but I am up there on a regular basis I snowmobile up there and was up just over a week ago believe me I know how much snow is there and I can also tell you it always snows a lot up there in the spring this is nothing new all they had to do was go look and let more water out of the lake instead they got caught with their pants down
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by the truth »

LTD wrote:sorry kg but I am up there on a regular basis I snowmobile up there and was up just over a week ago believe me I know how much snow is there and I can also tell you it always snows a lot up there in the spring this is nothing new all they had to do was go look and let more water out of the lake instead they got caught with their pants down


them going up there would involve them leaving there desk
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Glacier
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by Glacier »

My uncle is the one who measures the snowpacks across the entire province including the Okanagan. Believe me, it's accurate. It was low, but then got high because of the record wet Spring.
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by GordonH »

Glacier wrote:My uncle is the one who measures the snowpacks across the entire province including the Okanagan. Believe me, it's accurate. It was low, but then got high because of the record wet Spring.


Cool wet end of winter and wetter spring with low temps, equals snow in upper elevations.
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Re: Who is the idiot who didn't see this coming?

Post by dirtybiker »

And next year the powers that be will let out so much water
that any dock left won't even make it to the water !

Marinas with boats sitting in the muck.
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